EU Proposes Law To KYC All Wallet Transfers

MiddleEuroAsia said:

people who don't understand crypto think that BTC is the perfect heaven for criminals, when in reality, it's pretty terrible because of it's transparent blockchain and there are tools like chainalysis that makes tracking btc transactions easier than ever.

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Recently there was a case where 2 kids 17 and 20 year old ran away with 3.6 billion usd from their crypto exchange in south Africa. I read that their bitcoins couldn't be tracked because they used mixers. Apart from that you can just use wallet without KYC, how could you get tracked then?

Most criminals prefer cash because they are too stupid to understand or even know what crypto is. I'm sure smarter cyber criminals are in love with it. Dark markets were very early adopters for Bitcoin. How would they operate without crypto? Yes workarounds can be always found but it would be less convenient. I am not saying that every crypto user is shady but I believe crypto is useful for both tax evaders and criminals and governments are after these people they are not scared that cryptocurrencies will take over the world na kick out fiat

I agree Bitcoin is nice high risk investment to put small part of wealth in but there is group of people that treat it like religion or more, probably they earned some money off it and now they chase this pleasant feeling they are gamblers not investors and they are guaranteed to fail. Instead of creating real value for the world they spend all day reading some clowns on twitter discussing if Bitcoin will hit 500k or 1m. they're very arrogant and immature

MichalS said:

How would they operate without crypto?

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Easy. Shady banks account registered to darks and drops.
Using bribe to bank employers to avoid banks check.
Number of other ways how to deal with it.
@MiddleEuroAsia correctly noted. All criminals are integrated ALREADY for a many years into current financial system and use it. They don't need crypto at all.
They passed all KYC/compliance/DD many times easier compared to average John.

In fact, crypto is very dependent to fiat in terms of using it in both legal/illegal activity. I.e. no matter what you want to buy: coffee or drugs, seller in most cases want fiat.
And both cases have route how to get this fiat.
With crypto it's a just some 'gateway', which convert crypto to fiat above the traditional financial system. Without crypto it's a just traditional banking system or cash.
Nothing changed when crypto used here.

MichalS said:

Recently there was a case where 2 kids 17 and 20 year old ran away with 3.6 billion usd from their crypto exchange in south Africa. I read that their bitcoins couldn't be tracked because they used mixers. Apart from that you can just use wallet without KYC, how could you get tracked then?

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Hide this amount with mixers and use funds in future not so simple as you think.
Exchanges and P2P platforms will ban them after few small transactions.
And they will need to go over the world to cashout or launder such amount.

John Spectre said:

Easy. Shady banks account registered to darks and drops.
Using bribe to bank employers to avoid banks check.
Number of other ways how to deal with it.
@MiddleEuroAsia correctly noted. All criminals are integrated ALREADY for a many years into current financial system and use it. They don't need crypto at all.
They passed all KYC/compliance/DD many times easier compared to average John.

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Yes it is a way but it's way less convenient when you know that your bank account can be banned anytime and funds seized. It's way harder to get fake bank account than to open crypto wallet. Avarage darknet buyers are drug addicts and child pornography users not some high caliber criminals. I don't think opening darks bank accounts would be easy for them.

MichalS said:

Yes it is a way but it's way less convenient when you know that your bank account can be banned anytime and funds seized. It's way harder to get fake bank account than to open crypto wallet. Avarage darknet buyers are drug addicts and child pornography users not some high caliber criminals. I don't think opening darks bank accounts would be easy for them.

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Opening crypto wallet is not helped here.
because it would require:
1. depositing funds and converting to crypto
2. seller should be able to receive crypto and convert to fiat
3. seller should be able to cashout this illegal fiat.
All above need to be wrapped to non-crypto flow.

And now compare to the traditional financial flow,
where average buyer will just make a p2p card transaction or use merchant for fake buying.
Above 1-3 steps just unnecessary, because it's a already possible to spend money from the card/account for cheap illegal thing.
And good luck for bank to identify 100 eur payment to some XXX merchant which will lost in number of daily transactions.
It's a much more different where banks could know popular crypto platforms like a binance, kraken, bitfinex, etc who are actual provide full level of service to deposit fiat, converting to the crypto, withdrawal, etc.

Bagpacker said:

- Case Closed-

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So for you a real crypto is Bitcoin....lol. Was not that hard to say was it....lol.

Martin Everson said:

So for you a real crypto is Bitcoin....lol. Was not that hard to say was it....lol.

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I see no reason to laugh, Martin.
Bagpacker adequately highlighted what is real crypto (in the eyes of SEC too) and what is not.
If you didn’t bother to read the description and try to understand, but just continue to "lol" here and throw that crypto is speculation, then these are your personal problems.
there is a clear definition of what a real crypto is:
bitcoin, ether, ada, doge.
there is a non real crypto:
stablecoins, stock tokens, pseudo-stocks like xrp.

the fact that you summarize everything in one pile (both good and bad without even trying to separate) only confirms that you do not even want to figure it out.
if so, why do you comment on every puff that happens in the crypto market? I see no reason why to do this, except from fomo, because you left the crypto sometime there in 2017, when its capitalization was a couple of dozen times less.

John Spectre said:

I see no reason to laugh, Martin.
Bagpacker adequately highlighted what is real crypto (in the eyes of SEC too) and what is not.
If you didn’t bother to read the description and try to understand, but just continue to "lol" here and throw that crypto is speculation, then these are your personal problems.
there is a clear definition of what a real crypto is:
bitcoin, ether, ada, doge.
there is a non real crypto:
stablecoins, stock tokens, pseudo-stocks like xrp.

the fact that you summarize everything in one pile (both good and bad without even trying to separate) only confirms that you do not even want to figure it out.
if so, why do you comment on every puff that happens in the crypto market? I see no reason why to do this, except from fomo, because you left the crypto sometime there in 2017, when its capitalization was a couple of dozen times less.

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doge, second that the others seem ok

real world use case. Buying land in Brazil (It wasn't me to quote Shaggy)

John Spectre said:

I see no reason to laugh, Martin.

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Crypto cult members will always get upset but thats not my problem. If you believe in Bitcoin and crypto beyond just using it to make a quick buck speculating, avoid currency controls and regulation (illegal activity) then I stopped feeling sorry for you and have to laugh at you.....lol. The Pied Pipers in the crypto world are leading you kids of investment astray for their own gain. I agree with governments on clamping down .

JackAlabama said:

real world use case. Buying land in Brazil (It wasn't me to quote Shaggy)
Just bought piece of land in Brazil and paid w Bitcoin. from Bitcoin

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If you can use crypto to buy tangible assets then more power to you. It proves those are the smart ones who speculate make money and get the hell out of it. Those holding it and chasing 9 billion percent returns well....good luck.

As always people gonna learn the hardway .

Martin Everson said:

Crypto cult members will always get upset but thats not my problem. If you believe in Bitcoin and crypto beyond just using it to make a quick buck speculating, avoid currency controls and regulation (illegal activity) then I stopped feeling sorry for you and have to laugh at you.....lol. The Pied Pipers in the crypto world are leading you kids of investment astray for their own gain. I agree with governments on clamping down .

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Phew, again slander and inventions.
I'm starting to get tired of trying to get something across to you.

Quick buck speculating on crypto 100% same to speculation with stocks when SP500 at higher high with economy fall. These speculators will lost with stocks and with crypto on long term. It's a not crypto fail.

Currency controls and regulation? What you even know about it? Name least few countries in the world where currency control help to economic grow there. More over, if you look to the countries where currency control exists, you could found shitty places in the world. Again, not crypto fail, but crypto helped there for legal thing.

Regulation it's a quite manipulative words.
You liked it? Hmm, stop. Who was the person who propose to f**k off with banks who are starting to KYC and DD clients if they asked something more than bank statement?
I remember it was some person named Martin Everson.
Who is propose to leave EU and other places with big regulation to the places where regulation don't even exists? Not you?
So, you actually don't like regulation in practice? In fact, you don't like regulation as other most of people. But some find crypto as non regulated place for them and some find other places and thing (put any place you personally like here)
What you like is a double standards because it easy to manipulate.

governments clamping down what exactly? Top tiers crypto don't care and don't even have real problem with governments willing to clamp down.
IF you look to some pure scam projects, fishy exchanges and other, such things is for sure present in crypto. But tried to say that bitcoin are similar to this bs - it's a absolutely not truth.

John Spectre said:

I'm starting to get tired of trying to get something across to you.

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Your points are not very good unfortunately as I am not part of the crypto cult. I have ability to objective unlike yourself.

John Spectre said:

Quick buck speculating on crypto 100% same to speculation with stocks when SP500 at higher high with economy fall. These speculators will lost with stocks and with crypto on long term. It's a not crypto fail.

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I am a bond investor not stock investor . But if you wish to compare different forms of speculation then fine.

John Spectre said:

Currency controls and regulation? What you even know about it?

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Clearly more than you unfortunately .

John Spectre said:

Name least few countries in the world where currency control help to economic grow there.

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If we benchmark economic growth to that of Europe then China, Egypt, Georgia etc allowing for covid19 disaster that changed growth figures for most countries .

John Spectre said:

Who was the person who propose to f**k off with banks who are starting to KYC and DD clients if they asked something more than bank statement?

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No need to swear in the civil discourse we are having. But I always say to take your money to where it is treated best. Not sure what that has to do with anything...lol.

John Spectre said:

So, you actually don't like regulation in practice?

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You follow the law of the land and is regulations. If EU proposes law you don't like then move your behind to another place like I did or leave that activity altogether. You know my slogan "Get out the EU while you still can" .

John Spectre said:

What you like is a double standards because it easy to manipulate.

governments clamping down what exactly? Top tiers crypto don't care and don't even have real problem with governments willing to clamp down.

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I think you had a brain fart here. Not sure you know what you talking about. Anger may be affecting your thinking perhaps when you talk of top tier crypto...lol.

John Spectre said:

Top tiers crypto don't care and don't even have real problem with governments willing to clamp down.
IF you look to some pure scam projects, fishy exchanges and other, such things is for sure present in crypto. But tried to say that bitcoin are similar to this bs - it's a absolutely not truth.

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Leaders in any field like regulation if it benefits them and prevents new entrants, takes out competition. It consolidates their position . Personally I don't think any crypto is top tier and almost all are scams or designed to enrich the creator. Sadly most people like yourself are easily misguided by these Pied Pipers. You simply have not worked out human nature or the way the world works yet.

a bunch of insults and 0 real arguments, as always.
I see no point in continuing a dialogue with you on this topic.

@Martin Everson I am sure you are a very smart person and good at what you do, but multiple members are pointing out how you are basically providing zero real arguments against crypto and just shouting your personal beliefs and how 'crypto is just speculation' and how you don't feel bad that 'all the crypto kids will lose their money'.

We're all waiting for something of substance.

John Spectre said:

a bunch of insults and 0 real arguments, as always.
I see no point in continuing a dialogue with you on this topic.

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What insults? He answered each and every one of your points, while you were the one swearing. You have a severe case of projection, my friend

joseph15 said:

@Martin Everson I am sure you are a very smart person and good at what you do, but multiple members are pointing out how you are basically providing zero real arguments against crypto and just shouting your personal beliefs and how 'crypto is just speculation' and how you don't feel bad that 'all the crypto kids will lose their money'.

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Let me summarize all the arguments for you (although it is a waste of time as crypto people are worse then scientologists when it comes to the level of brainwashing):

1. Crypto only REAL use cases are evading currency control, speculation, and illegal activity.
2. There is no value in any real coin, beyond the value of its actual use - for currency controls, speculation, illegal activity. There is no network effect to crypto: in fact the more people use a coin, the slower transactions get, the fees get higher and the worse it becomes as an actual currency.
3. Unless you yourself are a criminal, most likely your "use" of crypto is pure speculation.
4. If you are a speculator, good for you- treat it like a speculation. If you are a short-term trader\speculator, crypto is a blessing and can make you very rich quite fast. Make the most of it and try to exit before the rug is pulled from underneath you.

If you are speculating but you think you are investing in a breakthrough technology that central banks will have to buy in the future - whose main use is facilitating crime and bypassing currency controls (which is again, crime) - you are a FOOL and you will end up separated from your money.

Q.E.D

maxmmm said:

What insults? He answered each and every one of your points, while you were the one swearing. You have a severe case of projection, my friend

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Yeah I took the time to answer each of his questions then he suddenly started to play the victim...bizarre .

joseph15 said:

@Martin Everson I am sure you are a very smart person and good at what you do, but multiple members are pointing out how you are basically providing zero real arguments against crypto and just shouting your personal beliefs and how 'crypto is just speculation' and how you don't feel bad that 'all the crypto kids will lose their money'.

We're all waiting for something of substance.

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I am actually waiting for credible arguments for crypto but that should be a new thread you may create if you want.

P.S I am an advocate of DLT (distributed ledger technology) but not much of a fan of whats running on it today.

maxmmm said:

1. Crypto only REAL use cases are evading currency control, speculation, and illegal activity.
2. There is no value in any real coin, beyond the value of its actual use - for currency controls, speculation, illegal activity.

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Crypto only real use case is currency control/illegal activity? Yeah, tell that to the second richest man in the world who put it on the balance sheet of all of his companies and in his personal portfolio I'm sure he's just nuts, and all the hedge fund managers managing billions who do the same are all clueless.

This is all your opinion and your perception on what crypto has/does not have to offer. You know just as well as I do that things have value based on supply/demand and not what YOU personally believe has value.

You guys already lost this argument, I don't even know why we're having a discussion. Bitcoin is currently sitting at a $650,000,000,000 market cap (after going down 50%). It doesn't matter if you think it doesn't have value because the market dictates value and the market disagrees with you.

I'm not even saying I can't be wrong, I very well could be. But as of today, there is a demand for it - just like there is a demand for pokemon cards, NFT's, and digital land in video games. Just because it makes zero sense in your brain has absolutely zero relevance to this discussion. People are going to continue buying, selling, and using crypto whether it's for storing value, hedging inflation, buying property, buying drugs, paying for porn, evading taxes, whatever it may be. If you think that this makes it illegitimate then that's your prerogative but I suggest not letting personal biases/emotions get in the way of your business.

maxmmm said:

1. Crypto only REAL use cases are evading currency control, speculation, and illegal activity.
2. There is no value in any real coin, beyond the value of its actual use - for currency controls, speculation, illegal activity. There is no network effect to crypto: in fact the more people use a coin, the slower transactions get, the fees get higher and the worse it becomes as an actual currency.
3. Unless you yourself are a criminal, most likely your "use" of crypto is pure speculation.
4. If you are a speculator, good for you- treat it like a speculation. If you are a short-term trader\speculator, crypto is a blessing and can make you very rich quite fast. Make the most of it and try to exit before the rug is pulled from underneath you.

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1. My entry into crypto wasn't about speculation or illegal activity. It wasn't about evading formal currency control. It was merely about the bad rates, high fees, delays and bureaucracy of the legacy banking system. I was using PayPal and sometimes spending 10% to rebalance some quite small sums. Sometimes I'd rebalance in both directions - 10% twice in one month was painful. Even though $1k at a time back then was small beans, crypto gave me a simpler, faster and cheaper way to do what I needed to do.

2. There is no value to a BTC. There is no value to a USDT or USDC. But if we really ask about the value, what are we guaranteed to get for our USD, EUR or GBP? Nothing. PAXG ("oh no!!! a crypto!!!") is backed by something in the way that USD hasn't been since 1971.

3. I didn't speculate on crypto since my dabbles with ANS, XRP and 4 ICOs in 2017. So if I'm not speculating, I'm probably a criminal? Really? Prove it. It is not a criminal act to provide liquidity to 21st century financial markets that are not directed by legacy regulators, where I live. It is not a criminal act to send Litecoin across borders to provide very cheap access to money, where I live.

4. Speculate all you want. My mean holding time is under eight hours. That is not speculation, that is trade. There is a difference.

My prediction is that there will be Yuan, US Dollar, Euro and Sterling cryptos within two years. But ask yourself this, would you rather hold those tokens (or fiat backed tokens such as USDT, USDC) for the next five to ten years, or would you rather hold PAXG? As we start to get tokenised copper, Lithium, etc. do you really want to be holding the bag on USD with your pitiful % interest? You're welcome to it.

People think they're heroes because they can make a few % per year on their fiat investments. Now adjust those for monetary inflation, to see that you didn't even keep up with the baseline.

Back to the topic of KYC and wallet transfers, I would bet money that P2P privacy coin transactions will be banned in more and more countries. I would bet money that VASPs are going to get more and more regulated when it comes to transacting with private wallets. This walled garden can be defended on terrorism grounds but it's really about tax. This has been the trend since 911.

The bigger question is not KYC, it is the ability for central banks to practice Modern Monetary Theory in a heterogeneous currency environment. They're addicted, and that won't end well. Some people in this thread seem committed to living within the scope of inflationary currencies. Other people seem quite skeptical. I am pretty skeptical.

joseph15 said:

Crypto only real use case is currency control/illegal activity? Yeah, tell that to the second richest man in the world who put it on the balance sheet of all of his companies and in his personal portfolio I'm sure he's just nuts, and all the hedge fund managers managing billions who do the same are all clueless.

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1. We will all see the day when Elon Musk \ Tesla is exposed as the fraud it is

2. You are just appealing to authority instead of actually giving a valid use case.

Why not showing this glorious video instead, also done by a famous billionaire, posted when BTC was at around $50k, so anybody that followed this advice went broke:

joseph15 said:

This is all your opinion and your perception on what crypto has/does not have to offer. You know just as well as I do that things have value based on supply/demand and not what YOU personally believe has value.

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100% agree.

joseph15 said:

I'm not even saying I can't be wrong, I very well could be. But as of today, there is a demand for it - just like there is a demand for pokemon cards, NFT's, and digital land in video games. Just because it makes zero sense in your brain has absolutely zero relevance to this discussion. People are going to continue buying, selling, and using crypto whether it's for storing value, hedging inflation, buying property, buying drugs, paying for porn, evading taxes, whatever it may be. If you think that this makes it illegitimate then that's your prerogative but I suggest not letting personal biases/emotions get in the way of your business.

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To be fair, I totally agree with everything you wrote here.

Crypto, NFTs, Pokemon Cards, Digital Land in Video games - are all valid ways to speculate and you can make a ton of money if you're smart and know your way around.
Not making fun of anybody that did that, actually I respect the hustle and the foresight to exit at the top and cash in your chips.

But if you think central banks will be forced to invest in NFTs or pokemon cards (or BTC) you have been brainwashed.

khinkali said:

4. Speculate all you want. My mean holding time is under eight hours. That is not speculation, that is trade. There is a difference.

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For me "speculate" the same as "trade", either way if you make money from it all the best to you, as I wrote before this totally makes sense and there are people making great money from this.

khinkali said:

The bigger question is not KYC, it is the ability for central banks to practice Modern Monetary Theory in a heterogeneous currency environment. They're addicted, and that won't end well. Some people in this thread seem committed to living within the scope of inflationary currencies. Other people seem quite skeptical. I am pretty skeptical.

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I've heard this story from all the usual doomers since the 80s... bla bla printing money bla bla Fed bla bla fake economy, USD is not backed by the Gold standard, the US will crash, the entire financial system is based on debt.
I actually believed it for a while too.

It sounds really logical and makes the person that repeats it sounds smart and sophisticated... posessing some secret knowledge about the financial systems that the regular "sheep" don't.
Sorry, if your "theory" is wrong 40 years in a row, it's a stupid theory. And now I'll wait for the usual conspiratorial replies that the crash is "just around the corner"... and "it won't end well", "this time it's different", "buy gold\silver"

My reply may sound snarky but I mean it in the best way possible, the sooner you'll realize this, the better off you will be: that people peddling this nonsense are just scammers trying to get you to buy gold\silver so they can earn commissions.

maxmmm said:

1. We will all see the day when Elon Musk \ Tesla is exposed as the fraud it is

2. You are just appealing to authority instead of actually giving a valid use case.

Why not showing this glorious video instead, also done by a famous billionaire, posted when BTC was at around $50k, so anybody that followed this advice went broke:

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I have nothing to say about that video. There are crazy and delusional people in every walk of life.

Crypto's real value is that it's the first thing in human history where you could feasibly store $1 or $1,000,000,000 worth of value all in your brain, untouchable by anybody else. Gold, cash, stocks, antiques, art, real estate, can all be taken from us at a whim. Crypto is true ownership of your wealth. You don't even have to engage in any evasion or illegal activity - it's something we should all want and push for. Privacy and true ownership.

I would think that of all people, members of a forum called 'offshorecorptalk' would be the first to see the value in that.

maxmmm said:

To be fair, I totally agree with everything you wrote here.

Crypto, NFTs, Pokemon Cards, Digital Land in Video games - are all valid ways to speculate and you can make a ton of money if you're smart and know your way around.
Not making fun of anybody that did that, actually I respect the hustle and the foresight to exit at the top and cash in your chips.

But if you think central banks will be forced to invest in NFTs or pokemon cards (or BTC) you have been brainwashed.

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I don't see why central banks investing in BTC or NFT's is necessary for Bitcoin and crypto to be relevant and adopted now or 50 years in the future. At the end of the day, we collectively decide what the future will look like, not the banks.

joseph15 said:

I have nothing to say about that video. There are crazy and delusional people in every walk of life.

Crypto's real value is that it's the first thing in human history where you could feasibly store $1 or $1,000,000,000 worth of value all in your brain, untouchable by anybody else. Gold, cash, stocks, antiques, art, real estate, can all be taken from us at a whim. Crypto is true ownership of your wealth. You don't even have to engage in any evasion or illegal activity - it's something we should all want and push for. Privacy and true ownership.

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I know multiple people that were drugged and their entire crypto net worth was stolen from them (multiple millions of dollars).
Sorry, I don't ever want to store a million dollars in my brain, or in USB stick. This sounds like a nightmare.

joseph15 said:

I have nothing to say about that video. There are crazy and delusional people in every walk of life.

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You were the first appealing to the wisdom of billionaires... shame you have nothing to say about this particular one, esp when it is right on the subject and had such a disastrous effect on anybody that tried to copy him.

That's exactly my point- trading\speculating is great. Mortgaging your house to buy BTC because it is taking over the world- that's called being brainwashed, and many of these billionaires are the ones doing the washing.