Question Moving to Romania to cash out Bitcoin gains?

[maggnus diggus]

Hey folks,
lets say i bought some Bitcoin early this year and have the fear that the market will crash before my 1 year long-term tax ease comes into play...

I read that lots of people suggest Cyprus and Portugal, which seems to be not entirely clear how they will tax it, i thought Romania could be an alternative (i dont mind paying taxes as long as the states could need it and it is a fair amount and not like 90% which some EU countries seem to be heading..)

Does anyone have experience moving to Romania?
When i checked the list of requirements to stay there longer than 90 days, it doesnt seem to hard, just rent a flat, show some proof of funds and private health insurance if registered as self-sufficient. is that correct?

and about that tax, lets say i move there end of july, i would be tax resident from august to december if i dont have another flat in another country, right?
so i could start selling Bitcoin as soon as i gave up my flat and landed in romania to enjoy the 10% flat tax-rate ?


thanks in advance!

 

[jonnyG]

You need 183 days for a fiscal residency and you will pay 10% tax + 10% social tax = 20%

 

[maggnus diggus]

But why is that?
If i only have a flat in Romania, why dont i become tax resident?

Are you sure about that social tax? I read that it is capped at 2676 lei maximum threshold, that would be 267,7 lei tax ?

 

[maggnus diggus]

Why don't you cash out such profits in a holding company rather than keeping it on a personal level? Romania is turning to be quite popular. A client just hired us for a quite large order and banks I guess are connected to the German system as payments are quite fast.

How would i do this? And what would be the advantage?

 

[maggnus diggus]

You set up a company in an EU Friendly jurisdiction. You sell the BTC you wish to cash out and you declare such profits as company income rather than pay personal tax. You would participate if you split dividends or get a salary from it. But, meantime, if you can keep the tax cost to 5-10%, then do it. Does it make sense?

But wouldnt that salary count as income?
I mean setting up a company also costs money, not sure if it gets a lot cheaper than 10%

 

[maggnus diggus]

Yeah but still dont get why a company would help me, i would need to move anyway?

 

[CyprusLaw]

Yeah but still dont get why a company would help me, i would need to move anyway?

A company would help you as the tax would be lower. For example doing this through a company in Cyprus would mean you will only pay 12.5% of corp tax on your profit.

 

[maggnus diggus]

But when the tax is 10% + 10% social capped (which would be 500€ per year?) then it would be cheaper than than 12.5% and wouldnt cost anything to set up?
Thats why i am asking

 

[i888]

But why is that?
If i only have a flat in Romania, why dont i become tax resident?

Are you sure about that social tax? I read that it is capped at 2676 lei maximum threshold, that would be 267,7 lei tax ?

You must stay in Romania.

Yes is true that is capped to that sum of money. 10% + 530 eur annually

Or stay in Romania and open a co which is taxed at 1% or 3%, depending if it has employees or not, for none is 3%.

Then distribute the div to you and pay 5% tax on it, so all wiil cost around 6%, but you must stay 183 in the country to be a resident here.

I'm a Romanian

 

[i888]

You need 183 days for a fiscal residency and you will pay 10% tax + 10% social tax = 20%

It's 10 with 530 eur for social tax, it's a flat rate.
5 percent for dividends
Small business less than 1 million eur per year 1 or 3 percent tax on the whole money flow

 

[jonnyG]

But why is that?
If i only have a flat in Romania, why dont i become tax resident?

Are you sure about that social tax? I read that it is capped at 2676 lei maximum threshold, that would be 267,7 lei tax ?

Yes you are right I review it again and it is only 10% + 2676 lei for the social tax

 

[JosephLL]

You set up a company in an EU Friendly jurisdiction. You sell the BTC you wish to cash out and you declare such profits as company income rather than pay personal tax. You would participate if you split dividends or get a salary from it. But, meantime, if you can keep the tax cost to 5-10%, then do it. Does it make sense?

Company has to have a registered account at crypto exchange. What conditions & docs do you have to show ? Which exchange onboards legal entities without full xray scan? Where do you find accountant sofisticated enough to know how to handle crypto in comp's balance sheet?

 

[Vampp]

Romania is 10% from Crypto Profits.
Yet Romanian banks won't work with crypto, they will freeze your accounts immediately .

Tough it can be arranged with a local with the local paying the tax and donating you the money.
There is no limit on how much a individual can donate to another individual, cash or trough a bank.

 

[jonnyG]

source ?

Romania is 10% from Crypto Profits.
Yet Romanian banks won't work with crypto, they will freeze your accounts immediately .

Tough it can be arranged with a local with the local paying the tax and donating you the money.
There is no limit on how much a individual can donate to another individual, cash or trough a bank.

So how you withdrawal ? Do they have bitcoin atm there ?

 

[i888]

Libra Bank is crypto friendly, but has a cap on 16k euro monthly.

Officially they don't want to admit they are working with money from crypto, you or other person should call and ask , depending on what co do and the docs about the origin of those crypto those banks could work with you.

In Feb 2020 a local exchange was investigated for money laundering in US from that moment all banks changed their view about working with money from crypto.

There are other banks, but once you have the co you can open account at any Bank in UE as long as it allows it.

In Romania you should have the docs for those crypto, that you get it legit, banks and anaf (Romanian it's) ask for it because of the UE and ro legislation aka money laundering.

 

[i888]

There are atm but they ask for id.

You might find a guy to buy your crypto f2f but, let say that they put you 100k in hand what do you do with that? Banks will ask for docs, you can't buy real estate, you can't pay with more than 10k in cash, you are in a fishy situation.

Locals to pay that tax 10% on it and then making a gift on those 90% hmmm and how your home country legislation will see that?

 

[Vampp]

@jonnyG

Yeah a lot of ATM's, the shitcoins atm does not have a limit and the owner is willing to meet you to trade cash for BTC.
You would need documents officially, but especially if you are a foreigner nobody cares.
You can take your cash and send it to Revolut via a bank without too much of a hassle.
Or more simplistic, buy some ART, jewelry if you have a larger sum. This is a good way to store your money and it always beats the inflation.

 

[i888]

You speak of a easy way to do crypto2cash and making cash deposits in banks, I'm a little confused by this, I would do that.

Playing with more than 5k is a magnet for ppl in banks and other places, Romania is still a UE state member and traces are traces.

 

[Vampp]

I888 shitcoins is a polish company working in Romania with their ATMS.

They don't ask for anything on any sum as they don't obey Romanian laws with their polish company.
You can even meet with a manager for a quick cash / crypto swap.

The ATM's always have at least 20k euro.

Regarding the banks, yes they are traceable but as a foreigner, nobody, and I mean nobody, will look for you.
Here is why:

- Nobody from the public institutions WORK, unless there is a complaint, declaration against you etc. 1.4 Million people in a 18M country work for the state, yet nobody works.
- Usually the friends , neighbors , family snitch you out due to envy here. If you don't have that ... you are good.
- Buy a normal car, nothing out of the ordinary ( Romanians do buy expensive cars anyways ). But don't move to the country and buy a lambo the next day. Have a car with no papers, don't worry costs about 200 eur to get it registered and ready.
- Earn 100M in cash, you can buy everything in Romania, no authority will ever knock on your door and ask you where you have the money from because they CAN'T. You see Romania never had a moment of let's all declare our money and our goods. Back in the 1989 to 1992 we had no LAW, no constitution. Then it was written by people who just wanted to steal this country and it was written abusively and in a very socialist way. Until 2004 everything imported was not even taxed. If my grandma used to smuggle jeans from turkey and earned a fortune then, she could have passed 100M in a briefcase to me. Unfortunately she is dead, so I can't be held accountable and they can't take the money from me as it's a inheritance. If they would ever ask me questions , I would say go ask her and that would be the end of it. So this is the actually cat in the box that nobody is talking about in Romania. If there are no traces of the money to me, I could have inherit, given the money, found it in the house walls etc.

If you do not stand out of the ordinary you can earn as much as you want, nobody will ring at your doorstep. Forget everything you know about EU members, it's a hoax here, I did it myself a while, but then they changed the laws in 2018, so for around 6% it's better with a company.