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Question Moving to Spain with Family and concerned about Wealth Tax

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pelias

Offshore Agent
This is my first post and generally new to the game:)
I have moved to the Netherlands where I enjoy the 30% ruling at the moment. I am thinking of moving to Spain end of year with my family and kids which would go to school in Spain. I am concerned about the wealth tax that might incur, since I have a crypto portfolio, pension portfolio, stock investment portfolio and own shares in a private Jersey Ltd (which by proportion is largest by value).

I have following questions which are not clear to me:
- How will the Spanish tax authority know about the existence and especially the value of the private Jersey Ltd shares for the wealth tax calculation?
- I am planning to realize my crypto gains by converting to fiat and back to crypto in the Netherlands (where I am not liable for any capital gains tax due to my expat status). Do I need to declare the portfolio upon arrival in Spain?
- Is there any good way of structuring this?

Cheers
 

Martin Everson

Offshore Retiree
Staff member
Mentor Group Gold
Elite Member
I am concerned about the wealth tax that might incur, since I have a crypto portfolio, pension portfolio, stock investment portfolio and own shares in a private Jersey Ltd (which by proportion is largest by value).

Move to Madrid where there is no wealth tax. Btw don't go to Catalonia region with its separatist ambitions.


How will the Spanish tax authority know about the existence and especially the value of the private Jersey Ltd shares for the wealth tax calculation?

You will tell them.

Do I need to declare the portfolio upon arrival in Spain?

No.

The crypto will be considered your capital on arrival in Spain. You would declare it in your tax return in Spain.

Is there any good way of structuring this?

No.

Capital gains tax rate in Spain anyway is not crazy. Top rate of capital gains tax is fair. However if you sell within 12 months tax can be up to 52% depending on where you live.
 

JackAlabama

Entrepreneur
If you are moving anyway, maybe consider a country outside the eu?
It seems to me you have not made up your mind yet or have a very compelling factor going for Spain. (Besides what everyone likes about it basically).
 

Martin Everson

Offshore Retiree
Staff member
Mentor Group Gold
Elite Member
Yup there is zero reason to move to Spain other than weather perhaps. There is a big difference in going on holiday to Spain and enjoying your time there compared to making it your residence and getting hammered with taxes. Anyone with decent money should use Spain as a partial year playground without moving residency there.

If I moved to Marbella for example I would lose in excess of 3% of my wealth each year. That is if I did nothing but sat on the beach reading a newspaper and not earning any income or capital gains on my worldwide assets....thats crazy eek¤%&.
 

John Andrews

Entrepreneur
OP take a look at Croatia, similar weather except there's no wealth tax and dividends/capital gains are taxed at 10%. Crypto is tax free if you hold it for more than 2 years.

There's also Greece.
 

pelias

Offshore Agent
Thanks for the suggestions! I am still undecided but would prefer staying in Europe, parents getting old... Would Greece be any better compared to Spain regarding capital gains, wealth tax and crypto?
 

pelias

Offshore Agent
Yup there is zero reason to move to Spain other than weather perhaps. There is a big difference in going on holiday to Spain and enjoying your time there compared to making it your residence and getting hammered with taxes. Anyone with decent money should use Spain as a partial year playground without moving residency there.

If I moved to Marbella for example I would lose in excess of 3% of my wealth each year. That is if I did nothing but sat on the beach reading a newspaper and not earning any income or capital gains on my worldwide assets....thats crazy eek¤%&.
I once overheard that there is an optimal way to hold investment capital as a resident in Spain within the framework of a Spanish ‘tax approved’ investment Bond which are specifically designed to be tax-sheltered in Spain. What do you think of such a structure?
 

JackAlabama

Entrepreneur
Thanks for the suggestions! I am still undecided but would prefer staying in Europe, parents getting old... Would Greece be any better compared to Spain regarding capital gains, wealth tax and crypto?
Can you take your parents with you?
Greece is as bad if not worse.

How about Montenegro? That would give you a least some years of leeway.
 

pelias

Offshore Agent
Can you take your parents with you?
Greece is as bad if not worse.

How about Montenegro? That would give you a least some years of leeway.
They don't want to move anywhere :) Montenegro could be an option. What do you mean by "some years of leeway"?
 

KJK

Entrepreneur
Yup there is zero reason to move to Spain other than weather perhaps.
Cheap real estate perhaps (outside the biggest 3-4 largest cities)? Learning Spanish - whether for yourself or for the kids?

I somewhat agree, if you are considering the region, I think even the neighbouring Portugal offers better incentives (for new residents, retirees etc.) as far as I know.
 

JackAlabama

Entrepreneur
Cheap real estate perhaps (outside the biggest 3-4 largest cities)? Learning Spanish - whether for yourself or for the kids?

I somewhat agree, if you are considering the region, I think even the neighbouring Portugal offers better incentives (for new residents, retirees etc.) as far as I know.
regarding real estate, this is valid for pretty much all of europe.
Latin america has also spanish and often better tax.
I'd also opt for Portugal if it "must" be there.
 

FreeBit

New member
This is my first post and generally new to the game:)
I have moved to the Netherlands where I enjoy the 30% ruling at the moment. I am thinking of moving to Spain end of year with my family and kids which would go to school in Spain. I am concerned about the wealth tax that might incur, since I have a crypto portfolio, pension portfolio, stock investment portfolio and own shares in a private Jersey Ltd (which by proportion is largest by value).

I have following questions which are not clear to me:
- How will the Spanish tax authority know about the existence and especially the value of the private Jersey Ltd shares for the wealth tax calculation?
- I am planning to realize my crypto gains by converting to fiat and back to crypto in the Netherlands (where I am not liable for any capital gains tax due to my expat status). Do I need to declare the portfolio upon arrival in Spain?
- Is there any good way of structuring this?

Cheers
Your kids 2 days after starting school in spain o_Oo_Oo_O
1614715806417.png
 

Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
From a recent Live and Invest Overseas article:

You've probably also heard about wealth taxes.

France's wealth tax is notorious. Historically, if you were a resident of France, the country's wealth tax applied to your worldwide assets, including jewelry (difficult to track and to value). If you hit the threshold (1.3 million euros, US$1.5 million), the tax started at a fraction of a percent.

In 2018, France changed its wealth tax law. Now only real estate is included when calculating the value of your assets to determine whether or when the wealth tax applies. The threshold of 1.3 million euros remains. If you're a real estate tycoon wanting to live in France, you should speak with a French tax advisor before establishing residency to understand what you could do to mitigate any potential wealth tax hit.

France gets a bad tax rap, but, in fact, Italy and Spain are probably more painful tax regimes... because of how each country calculates the amount of tax owed. The tax bands are similar among all three, but France divides household income by the number of units living in the household before applying the tax bands.

Spain imposes a wealth tax that varies by region.
Italy charges a wealth tax on financial assets held outside the country... so you should consider moving your stock portfolio to an Italian broker if you're planning to become an Italian resident.
 

botero

New member
For avoiding the wealth tax, would transferring some of your assets to family members abroad work? For example, if you have a brother that lives in another country, you could cash out some of your investments, send it to him, and have him invest it for you. Ideally, this would be a country with no wealth or gift tax (e.g. Canada).
 

Martin Everson

Offshore Retiree
Staff member
Mentor Group Gold
Elite Member
I once overheard that there is an optimal way to hold investment capital as a resident in Spain within the framework of a Spanish ‘tax approved’ investment Bond which are specifically designed to be tax-sheltered in Spain. What do you think of such a structure?

Your referring to Spanish Compliant Investment Bonds. How will that help you with crypto or your own stocks? Do you have a provider willing to wrap those products into such an investment bond. Normally such providers offer their own selection of funds within such wrappers with super high annual fees and upfront advisory charges :confused:

It is a private company, would I be able to make up a valuation?

Yes you will and so will Spanish taxman also.
 

JackAlabama

Entrepreneur
Your referring to Spanish Compliant Investment Bonds. How will that help you with crypto or your own stocks? Do you have a provider willing to wrap those products into such an investment bond. Normally such providers offer their own selection of funds within such wrappers with super high annual fees and upfront advisory charges :confused:



Yes you will and so will Spanish taxman also.
Let us guess who will come up with the higher valuation and who gets the last say in valuation matters ;)

Btw. They will also tell you the selling price of your home if you chose to sell it (relevant for tax issues).
 

cryptorium

New member
I hold a Spanish passport. If you stay more than 183 days or close in Spain AEAT (Hacienda/Tax Agency) is famous for checking your cards, flight tickets and figure out something that works for them. See Shakira case 46M fine. The first consideration, where your economic centre of interest will be.
Second, any personal gains there will be taxed on IRPF (Personal tax). And it is composed of State tax + Autonomous Region. From 60K EUR onwards this champions from 45% to 54% in Comunidad Valenciana. On tax related to dividends or capital gains, you will be subject to 21-23% (23 from 50K EUR). As you see it is a confiscatory-non friendly environment.

How can you survive if you still like the weather? Have a subsidiary SL company and try to give it some activity while you handle some expenses thru. Company tax is around 25% and about 11% for IP related gains. And you will need a very good accountant to navigate the poisoned waters of the Spanish leftist government.

Life quality and everything else the country can be a champion decision. As a curiosity Read Andorra success VS. Spanish fleeing there. Imagine all those who are below 35 and can go to any country in the world when they discover such taxation what they do. You guessed probably. ESCAPE :)
 
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