Russian billionaires lose $80 billion in wealth

[uplana]

Anyone notice this
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/russian-billionaires-lose-over-80-billion-in-wealth.html

Sanctions on oligarchs, along with the collapse of the Russian ruble, have swiftly brought the end of an era for an entire class of Russian elites.

 

[avalanche]

Anyone notice this
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/03/03/russian-billionaires-lose-over-80-billion-in-wealth.html

So much for the rights of the private property in a civilized western society
That's what they called "kulaks" back in USSR days.

 

[uplana]

I also do not think it is fair to confiscate the fortunes of ALL Russians, but conversely, it is probably difficult to find out who is not sleeping in bed with Putin.

 

[avalanche]

I also do not think it is fair to confiscate the fortunes of ALL Russians, but conversely, it is probably difficult to find out who is not sleeping in bed with Putin.

The very fact that they decide to confiscate without any court or proven guilt. It makes me think that anyone can be next

 

[OTR365]

I also do not think it is fair to confiscate the fortunes of ALL Russians, but conversely, it is probably difficult to find out who is not sleeping in bed with Putin.

Confiscations only apply to a very select clique of Putin's friends, not ALL Russians.

In Putin's Russia, it is not possible to make billions without being part of the inner circle. People who were not ready to bend the knee - such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky - and could thus become a challenge to Putin's gang, were jailed and stripped of their wealth. They were probably also dirty, but dirt was never the problem. Leaders of the real opposition, such as Boris Nemtsov, were assasinated. Even smaller nuisances such as the journalist Anna Politivskaya, were murdered. The leaders of fake opposition parties - such as Vladimir Zhirinovsky - were always safe and on Kremlin's payroll.

Those oligarchs whose yachts are now being reposessed are not innocent. They are enablers and deserve all the (minor) s**t is that is coming to them, and much more. Sure, a point can be made about property rights in Western countries, but we crossed that Rubicon already in the 1980s when the concept of money laundering appared. Property rights will be further eroded e.g. with central bank digital currencies.

In the greater scheme of things, a $50 million yacht taken from Putin's friend is just pocket lint. Even the money confiscated from Russian Central Bank - about 300 billion euros - is pittance. Europe's biggest country is being reduced into rubble without any valid reason. Ukraine will never become Putin's little puppy dog, and that means a very long guerrilla war with untold miseries.

 

[Martin Everson]

The very fact that they decide to confiscate without any court or proven guilt. It makes me think that anyone can be next

I wonder what crime they are accused of to have assets frozen. Is knowing Putin a crime in itself? Undue confiscation of private property is dangerous we should learn from history as next it could happen to you .


First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

- Martin Niemöller

 

[avalanche]

Confiscations only apply to a very select clique of Putin's friends, not ALL Russians.

For now.

In Putin's Russia, it is not possible to make billions without being part of the inner circle. People who were not ready to bend the knee - such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky - and could thus become a challenge to Putin's gang, were jailed and stripped of their wealth. They were probably also dirty, but dirt was never the problem. Leaders of the real opposition, such as Boris Nemtsov, were assasinated. Even smaller nuisances such as the journalist Anna Politivskaya, were murdered. The leaders of fake opposition parties - such as Vladimir Zhirinovsky - were always safe and on Kremlin's payroll.

Those oligarchs whose yachts are now being reposessed are not innocent. They are enablers and deserve all the (minor) s**t is that is coming to them, and much more. Sure, a point can be made about property rights in Western countries, but we crossed that Rubicon already in the 1980s when the concept of money laundering appared. Property rights will be further eroded e.g. with central bank digital currencies.

In the greater scheme of things, a $50 million yacht taken from Putin's friend is just pocket lint. Even the money confiscated from Russian Central Bank - about 300 billion euros - is pittance. Europe's biggest country is being reduced into rubble without any valid reason. Ukraine will never become Putin's little puppy dog, and that means a very long guerrilla war with untold miseries.

That doesnt change the fact that private property is being taken by a country that has no relation whatsoever to this conflict. They make laws as they go and it sounded like an emotional act or sign of a tribal society with lynching etc.

 

[OTR365]

...private property is being taken by a country that has no relation whatsoever to this conflict.

Oh, Europe is part of this conflict, make no mistake. This is happening in Europe. Also the victim is a country that wanted to become an EU member. This is as black & white as it ever gets; even ultra-sensitive countries like Sweden, Finland and Norway are providing weapons to Ukraine.

What Europe is now doing is better classified as cope, i.e. a less worthy thing a person does instead of a thing he should do, if he had the needed courage. At this moment Europe is confiscating yachts, but should really be selling Ukraine top shelf fighter aircraft for 1€/piece, with Ukraine granting instant Ukrainian passports to their European volunteer pilots. Or - if Europeans played dirty like Russians do - they should be sinking those yachts, just to make their point clear. "For shits & giggles".

What I am trying to say is, we are in a real conflict now. Right or wrong, concepts like property rights will yield, just as they yielded during previous wars. Things will be expontentially worse in Russia. So if any reader of this esteemed forum with non-Russian passport is in Russia now, get out quick. The gates are closing.

 

[Martin Everson]

Or - if Europeans played dirty like Russians do - they should be sinking those yachts, just to make their point clear. "For shits & giggles".

Joke would be on Europeans sadly. You ever heard of insurance?

Emotions needs to calm down as everybody is thinking with their hearts and not their brains. Cool minds is what is needed to save lives .

 

[OTR365]

Joke would be on Europeans sadly. You ever heard of insurance?

Emotions needs to calm down as everybody is thinking with their hearts and not their brains. Cool minds is what is needed to save lives .

Yes, I've heard of that concept somewhere. However there are always ways to play dirty. Russians in general know these ways, i.e. they will not return the 500 or so leased foreign passenger jets, but will charge extraorbitant fees for parking them. Just another Putin-esque "quick win - massive long term loss" trick. All this talk about respecting private property only seems to apply to Europe, not Russia.

What you are missing is the experience of about 100 million Europeans who know through their ancestors and direct experience the real Russia better than you. (I remember you mentioning you have a Russian wife. No problem there. I've known many Russians personally, had them as friends. They have slept in my home.)

The cup runneth over - you can see this from the 180 degree turn Germany did. There is no way to save this, or make it nice. Russia will end up isolated from the West. It will lose in the end. China is going to be the only real winner.

 

[Martin Everson]

(I remember you mentioning you have a Russian wife. No problem there. I've known many Russians personally, had them as friends.)

I am not married and my girl is not Rusky...lol.

However there are always ways to play dirty.

An eye for an eye makes the world blind.

What you are missing is the experience of about 100 million Europeans who know through their ancestors and direct experience the real Russia better than you.

Very true. But keeping your emotions in check is important. If you think and act of emotions then you are bound to make mistake if a little bit of logic is not applied sadly.

 

[OTR365]

I am not married and my girl is not Rusky...lol.

Genuinely sorry for this misrepresentation. After reading this, I used the search function and found the relevant message. Clearly it did not say anything about Russian woman. I don't even know how I ended up with that idea. Mea maxima culpa, no two ways about it.

Regarding emotions vs. logic, I can see very clearly that it makes sense for my country and other European countries to give weapons to Ukrainians - even prolonging the conflict and suffering of Ukrainians - so that it will be easier for us when the Russians come for us. As the Russian chess master Garry Kasparov says, stopping a dictator only becomes more expensive over time. Whatever the cost, Russian imperialism should be stopped now.

 

[Martin Everson]

Genuinely sorry for this misrepresentation. After reading this, I used the search function and found the relevant message. Clearly it did not say anything about Russian woman. Mea maxima culpa, no two ways about it.

No worries mate.

Regarding emotions vs. logic, I can see very clearly that it makes sense for my country and other European countries to give weapons to Ukrainians - even prolonging the conflict and suffering of Ukrainians - so that it will be easier for us when the Russians come for us. As the Russian chess master Garry Kasparov says, stopping a dictator only becomes more expensive over time.

The danger is the further destruction this will bring. These countries giving weapons will cause more problems for Ukraine and Europe in long term.

Read my post below fully on the topic. It has just not been thought through clearly the unintended effects.

Here is the problem. Ukraine is a very very corrupt country at all levels. It also has a neo-Nazi problem in government and the military with the Azov brigade etc that west is ignoring at their peril. The west and certain countries are supplying them with advanced weapons. Also Ukraine is handing out guns to citizens and releasing prisoners from jail who have military training and giving them weapons to fight. This is a recipe for long term disaster. If you don't vet who you give weapons too you end up turning the place into Somalia. Sooner or later these people will run out of money and the first thing of value they have will be guns, grenades, explosives, Stinger missiles and advanced anti-tank hardware. Hence items will soon be sold on the black market or dark web. We seen it already happen in Libya where US approved arms given to Libyan rebels end up in Mali killing French soldiers. The same will happen here. These advanced weapons will end up sold to criminal gangs and terrorists to threaten European countries or even bring down passenger planes across Europe. An end to conflict is needed not weapons and short sightedness of governments.

Also after the conflict ends and if not peacefully then these Ukraine ultra nationalists are gonna want the spoils of war if victorious. They are gonna become a problem for Ukraine government, EU and Russia. Once you taste blood you tend to get a liking for it. I hope people can see the big picture - the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan supported by US to fight Russia did not go away they become AL Qaeda .

 

[hlepic211]

Also after the conflict ends and if not peacefully then these Ukraine ultra nationalists are gonna want the spoils of war if victorious. They are gonna become a problem for Ukraine government, EU and Russia. Once you taste blood you tend to get a liking for it. I hope people can see the big picture - the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan supported by US to fight Russia did not go away they become AL Qaeda .

Very good observaton, my thoughts exactly same - EU will probably take the first hit of the newborn ultra-UkrQaeda

 

[Golden Fleece]

So much for the rights of the private property in a civilized western society

This is what civilized countries do instead of waging war against uncivilized countries.

Injuring property rights is far better than killing and injuring people, which is what Putin is doing.

100 years ago, a Russian invasion would have caused a war involving half a dozen European nations. Instead, some ultra-wealthy Russian enablers get some of their wealth frozen or shrunken.

 

[avalanche]

This is what civilized countries do instead of waging war against uncivilized countries.

Injuring property rights is far better than killing and injuring people, which is what Putin is doing.

Just wait until they come after your rights, it wont take too long. You can stretch anything on top of circumventing legal process

 

[Golden Fleece]

Just wait until they come after your rights, it wont take too long. You can stretch anything on top of circumventing legal process

Legal process does not apply to blatantly illegal acts of war. In all of human history, it never has. It never will.

 

[avalanche]

Legal process does not apply to blatantly illegal acts of war. In all of human history, it never has. It never will.

Is there any legal act of war though

 

[Martin Everson]

Is there any legal act of war though

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
Yes....but it seems no one follow it. The Iraq war was certainly not a legal act of war. Sadly we live in a world since many years where might is right .

 

[Golden Fleece]

Is there any legal act of war though

Self-defense. The Ukrainians are currently engaging in legal acts of war against an illegal aggression.