Are debit card transactions exchanged under the CRS?

[hasby2023]

Hi all, I'd like to know if intra-EU the data on debit card transactions are exchanged between fiscal agencies or fiscal police under the CRS or any other agreement. I know that under the CRS are exchanged only the data on the balance of bank accounts, but i have no clue whether also such information are shared or not. Thanks!

 

[Clank]

Only account balances not individual payments.

 

[jafo]

If the debit card, whether balances or payments, can somehow be linked to you, I would exercise extreme caution.

 

[JohnLocke]

You balance is reported which is sufficient for the tax office if they want to look deeper into your case they will request all information to see all your transactions!

 

[Sols]

It's always worth remembering the sting operations that were done in Europe (10–15 years ago now). Tax authorities in some countries simply demanded and got a list of all ATM withdrawals done by cards issued in tax havens. They then matched the name on those transactions to the local tax registries to see if someone was withdrawing more cash than was commensurate with their declared income and assets.

That was a long time ago. Information gathering has only got better and privacy worse since then.

So while debit card transactions are not in scope for CRS, there are other ways a card can leave a trail for the tax man.

 

[Radko]

I would not use a debit card from an offshore bank or a foreign bank in your home country if your local tax authorities don't know about that foreign account.
Local tax authorities, as well explained in this thread, are checking ATM withdrawals and then try to see if the holder of that debit card lives in that county. If they can't see that you are a resident of that county where you used your debit card they will think of you as a foreigner that was there on holidays. So don't make the mistake of using that debit card in the country where you are a Tax resident.

You can always take extra precaution and get a prepaid debit card that's not linked to any bank, you load the card and off you go with the spending

 

[Blue2000]

But are anonymous prepaid debit card safe then?

 

[Sols]

But are anonymous prepaid debit card safe then?

It really depends. Many of them aren't really anonymous. Some have your name saved in the card (EMV chip, mag stripe); you can see this when you use the card at a POS terminal or ATM that prints out a receipt with the cardholder's name on it. Some can be traced back to you by contacting the issuing bank and having them disclose the name of the account holder.

 

[Radko]

But are anonymous prepaid debit card safe then?

There are some cards out there that are anonymous, but many cards without a name, as just mentioned by Sols, are still easy to track.
So do proper research before using an "anonymous card", or just don't ever use the card, anonymous or not, in the country where you are a tax resident.

 

[Percy]

Crypto loaded prepaid cards would offer a bit more anonymity (the ones that do not ask for personal details) but as others have said, if they wanted to look they could propably link that to you.

 

[jafo]

don't ever use the card, anonymous or not, in the country where you are a tax resident.

This should be ONE of the commandments of the OCT forum!
Seriously, this is TOO important NOT to be repeated!

But are anonymous prepaid debit card safe then?

I can tell you from personal experience:
Suppose you are buying things like groceries, meat, chicken, fruits, vegetables, and milk, paying at a pharmacy, paying for medical visits, paying your insurance, putting fuel in your car, paying for train rides, buying a plane ticket, buying books at the bookstore, borrowing books at the library, paying your University tuition, eating at restaurants once or twice per week, paying your optometrist, paying your gym membership etc etc. In that case, you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about. Nobody cares if you are trying to "survive".

Now, if you frequent nightclubs, and super expensive restaurants every day or more than once per day, purchase high-end luxury items like Louis Vuitton, Versace, Hermès, Prada, Patek Philippe, Rolex, car payment/rentals on supercars, pay escorts, pay on escort sites etc etc., you are royally f*cked...especially if the purchase is +€10K or "structured" to obfuscate that it is more than +€10K.

In certain countries, including but not limited to the USA, Canada, Australia, the Netherlands, Belgium, Spain etc., there are thousands of informants with monetary incentives/rewards to report the "suspects". This is easily confirmed with a rudimentary search using Google. These "informants" are NOT hanging out in University libraries or in grocery stores.

Govern yourself accordingly!

 

[wellington]

This one always gets me

End of year balance = balance in the account opposed to funds spent/routed through said account that year?

 

[Cloudbanck]

or just don't ever use the card, anonymous or not, in the country where you are a tax resident.

Or just don't be a tax resident in a tax hell. If you are a tax resident in Antigua, or UAE, or Paraguay or some place with reasonable taxation, it's not going to be a problem using a card there.

As to using it in your "home" country. It depends on what your relation with your home country is.

If your home country is a tax hell, and you are a tax resident in it, then yeah, dont use the card.
If your home country is a tax hell, but you havent been a tax resident in it for many years, then I think it's fine to use for short visits, but if you use the card frequently for many months that can in itself cause tax residency.

 

[Marketint]

The Netherlands monitored all foreign transactions with card (atm and POS) in 2009-2011. Then they examined all cards with more than 50k euro spend from high-risk countries. Translate this Rechtspraak.nl - Zoeken in uitspraken (number 4) and nowadays it’s just more easy for them .

 

[jafo]

The Netherlands monitored all foreign transactions with card (atm and POS) in 2009-2011. Then they examined all cards with more than 50k euro spend from high-risk countries. Translate this Rechtspraak.nl - Zoeken in uitspraken (number 4) and nowadays it’s just more easy for them .

I finished reading this! This was such a BS case! The dastardly parasites decided that because the couple remained silent and would NOT incriminate themselves they (the court bastards) could infer (what a BS term) to use sophistry and casuistry to decide that this was money laundering.
I'm glad the elderly couple kept their mouth shut (remained silent) and basically told the parasites to stick it! If I knew who they were, I would send them a few bottles of Champagne!

Also, as I said above if they were going to Albert Heijn, Kruidvat, Lidl, etc., nobody would care. They, sadly, fell asleep at the wheel.

 

[Coconut]

This one always gets me

End of year balance = balance in the account opposed to funds spent/routed through said account that year?

From my understanding, it is the net balance at the end of the year, not the total turnover of the account. Sending each transaction would be a significant data burden for local governments.


Furthermore, for the e-money service providers, a rolling average "90 day end-of-day aggregate account balance" rull is said to be used, where you are reported (or "flagged") when your average of balances at the end of day, for the last 90 days, exceeds over 10k. Meaning, if you deposit 100k in the morning, and get them out by evening, your end-of-day balance for the day is 0, and nothing gets reported...which is a weird rule in my opinion.

 

[jafo]

From my understanding, it is the net balance at the end of the year, not the total turnover of the account. Sending each transaction would be a significant data burden for local governments.


Furthermore, for the e-money service providers, a rolling average "90 day end-of-day aggregate account balance" rull is said to be used, where you are reported (or "flagged") when your average of balances at the end of day, for the last 90 days, exceeds over 10k. Meaning, if you deposit 100k in the morning, and get them out by evening, your end-of-day balance for the day is 0, and nothing gets reported...which is a weird rule in my opinion.

******
The simple fact that this is NOT transparent and we're here "speculating/guessing" what they might or might not be doing confirms to ANY intelligent hardworking productive individual that those "unproductive parasitic dastardly gang members under the ruse of government" that want us to KYC and be transparent while they get to hide behind the anonymity veil of "government" are our mortal enemies and self-preservation and self-defense is the only answer!

PS. I have some more appropriate locution, but I've already been flagged for my "extreme" malediction, so I'll keep things civil and within the confines of indentured servitude

 

[wellington]

******
The simple fact that this is NOT transparent and we're here "speculating/guessing" what they might or might not be doing confirms to ANY intelligent hardworking productive individual that those "unproductive parasitic dastardly gang members under the ruse of government" that want us to KYC and be transparent while they get to hide behind the anonymity veil of "government" are our mortal enemies and self-preservation and self-defense is the only answer!

PS. I have some more appropriate locution, but I've already been flagged for my "extreme" malediction, so I'll keep things civil and within the confines of indentured servitude

Concur.

I don't really keep a reasonable amount in a bank since i guess 2007, and previously 2018.

Otherwise tiny amount of money in the bank (literally some people would be surprised but it's like under 1k in some banks).

So if the Government(s) want to have information on 70 euro, 450 Euro, 300 Euro, 250 Euro 0.2 Euro thats all well and good.

Side note : only a fool keeps money in the bank instead of working for them.
So not really sure what CRS is meant to solve.

 

[Coconut]

This is my pure (and further) speculation, but i think CRS is just a hassle for most EU countries to deal with and is not readily "enforced".
From the POV of a service provider, what are the risks really? A foreign country will complain they did not send them the data of one of your customers when they eventually and somehow get the data?

I can`t say for other countries, but in mine, there is shortage of people working in the government tax offices, and they are 90% focused on capturing any VAT frauds. I am sure no one tracks CRS, especially not in crypto.
Transparency in the way of reporting would surely be welcome, yes.

For now, my modus operandi is:

if a card has a virtual IBAN, it is safe from CRS, and your enviorment is based on card provider limits
if a card has real IBAN, there is CRS reporting, in which case I keep individual transactions lower than 10k (to avoid any potential bank triggers), and total yearly volume of 250k.

As much as Id like to believe the link I shared is accurate, and companies should look into 90-day moving average, I don't think they really do. At least not yet.
Hope this helps, because the entire CRS saga was the reason I joined this forum <3

 

[Sols]

This is my pure (and further) speculation, but i think CRS is just a hassle for most EU countries to deal with and is not readily "enforced".

An entire subsection of the financial services and compliance SAAS market is focused on selling CRS parsing and automation solutions to tax authorities.

The ROI calculation is a no-brainer. Spend a few hundred thousand on a piece of software to collect millions in unpaid taxes.

From the POV of a service provider, what are the risks really? A foreign country will complain they did not send them the data of one of your customers when they eventually and somehow get the data?

We'll see if the rest of the world takes a page out of US' playbook, where FATCA non-compliance comes with a 30% haircut one every USD transaction. Currently no such mechanism exists but it probably wouldn't be hard to get enough EU members to agree on it and have ECB implement something similar. Another weapon they have in their arsenal is to threaten to blacklist the whole jurisdiction if a bank is misbehaving and not being punished for it.

Time will tell.