Do you still trust Proton Mail ? ? ?

[jafo]

mass surveillance for crime, tax evasion

Straight-up synonyms.

illegal cases

What kind of "illegal"?

Mala in se or mala prohibita?

 

[incognitbro]

Whilst thread topic is ProtonMail risks - certainly not merits - the matter is about technological standards, nominal Swiss regulations and international legal assistance, beside other non public international agreements.

@incognitbro presents nominal fact that ProtonMail - and other privacy declared providers - isn't logging metadata which @wellington accepts.

Without getting into polemics with @wellington, @Sols and @incognitbro, I would remind them and the OCT about one quite secret and long program that US and Germany had with certain Swiss vendors - Crypto AG being one of them

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/world/national-security/cia-crypto-encryption-machines-espionage/

Proton AG and it's products are interesting but can be readily substituted with higher nominal and effective security margin.

This is what is known as whataboutism, all I did was refute your claim that its a requirement to do so. Could I have worded things better initially? Yes.

 

[Forester]

= Some totally off-topic posts moved to a new thread here Switzerland vs Russia =

First started putting together whilst in the UK briefly, built out whilst in Switzerland and then moved to HK (Corporate).

No, with all the adverse noise (years-years ago) towards privacy, even though it was never commercialised i didn't feel comfortable (think it was around the time of terror attacks in Europe) if something i created / owned / operated was used nefariously.

I see the need for it, but also recognised the potential negative societal impact and personal loss of liberty if it was used by such actors.

Yes, I understand – and agree.

I have been using Protonmail long time and never doubted it. What people discuss here is in illegal cases, why would they protect it ?

Well, the problem is, who and how is defining what is illegal. (See @jafo here Do you still trust Proton Mail ? ? ?) And especially in cases with some political context it is almost always questionnable...

 

[mraleph]

I was curious so did whois. This is why ProtonMail "merits" were stated

Things seem a little tense in this thread. Please stay on topic. A discussion about VPN logging sounds interesting, but that and other off topic posts will be deleted going forward. Let's keep this thread on track, i.e. the merits of ProtonMail.

whilst thread topic was about pros and cons with accent on risks

Yes, indeed.
Why is the topic of Proton Mail so "tense".
Is there something more to this topic that is not so obvious?
(I am asking as the person who started the thread.)




No, the topic is the risks of Proton Mail, not the "merits".

Well, that is your answer about obvious. And a conflict of interest on moderator's side.

 

[peter taradash]

Peter Taradash, a/k/a/ "Grandpa" says: If someone is going to break the law with threats, harassment, extortion/blackmail attempts, they risk exposure. Proton or the Dark Web, etc. won’t offer 100% anonymity. Some of the comments offer ways to gain enhanced privacy, but the best advice is: stay low profile. Don't do stuff to ruffle the feathers of the "authorities" with anything you do or post. Consider everything you do on the Internet as a "public record" that will lead the cops right to where you sleep.

 

[Sols]

This is why ProtonMail "merits" were stated

The topic is Proton Mail (which means discussions about Proton Mail are relevant). Some posts started bringing up VPN services. VPN services are not relevant. In order to keep the thread on focus, I asked that posts remain on topic. Not sure what your point is and why you'd quote me. We're in agreement. Why did you want my attention?

 

[mraleph]

The post is about "merits" and "risks" and not attention.

What is obvious is that a statement about what mail service is used by OCT - ProtonMail - should have been declared before "merits" were written by certain moderator. It constitutes a clear conflict of interest.

Hence, my post on the topic was a probable answer to @Frank in Bangkok question.

 

[Sols]

The post is about "merits" and "risks" and not attention.

What is obvious is that a statement about what mail service is used by OCT - ProtonMail - should have been declared before "merits" were written by certain moderator. It constitutes a clear conflict of interest.

Are you confused about the word "merits" and the context in which I used it? Are you unfamiliar with the word's usage beyond meaning praise or esteem? Especially when stated in plural, it's often used to mean something else.

Definition of MERITS, definition 2a:

merits plural : the substance of a legal case apart from matters of jurisdiction, procedure, or form

Or merit, definition 3:

often merits An aspect of character or behavior deserving approval or disapproval: judging people according to their merits.

Or Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words, both definitions:

1. the actual and intrinsic rights and wrongs of an issue, esp in a law case, as distinct from extraneous matters and technicalities
2. on its merits on the intrinsic qualities or virtues

I was calling for the discussion to continue to be about the rights and wrongs of Proton Mail, the substance of the matter of Proton Mail, and the aspects or behaviors of Proton Mail that are deserving of approval or disapproval. In other words: a completely neutral, matter-of-fact discussion about Proton Mail.

Hope you understand now and that we can continue to freely and openly discuss Proton Mail.

 

[mraleph]

You appear to look like a person that I know. Perhaps, you are. To many similarities in writing style.

Anyway, your position grants you a gravity - people may agree with you in order to be liked I don't need to be liked. What I strive here is quality discussion - as you say, at least neutral.

Already stated that I do not want to lose time commenting anything yours. My post was about the conflict of interest which should have been stated.

There are several layers od communication. One of those is meta - communicating by a context.

I firmly believe that your original comment was indeed refering to qualities of ProtonMail - judging by a context where your further comments proves my assumption.

A contribution to the discussion exist in quite impartial manner. But, this is your playground - you can moderate it however you choose - just don't assume that your actions aren't understood.

 

[Forester]

Just a short remark from me.

I clearly see in this case just a language misunderstanding. If anyone follows @Sols 's posts here then he definitely can see that @Sols uses a very nice (for me ) language of an apparently well educated person, containing very polite and relatively complicated statements. For me, as a person with some education i.a. in law, is @Sols 's usage of the word “merits” completely natural (and fully understandable). Having said that, I can imagine that for someone it need not be so.

Personally, I must say that until now I even was not aware that OCT is using ProtonMail service in any way; and I admit I do not care. If I had an opinion that ProtonMail service was a trash, I would present it here without any fear; and I believe that @Sols as well.

Just a side-note: If I was here instead of @Sols taking care of this debate, you would read from me the same content – although probably in a different form, less formal and I am afraid more harsh (“Colleagues, this VPN debate is going more off-topic than it should. This is a ProtonMail devoted thread, feel free to create a new one. Please stop it or some force will be used ”)

 

[Sols]

What's more likely?

A moderator encouraging a thread remain on topic.

Or...

A moderator — paid off by Proton Mail — censoring a thread and astroturfing a thread to only be favorable for Proton Mail. This censorship and astroturfing taking the shape of doing absolutely nothing other than using an English 102 word like merits. Not a single post deleted. No warnings issued. No users banned.

Proton Mail is shaking at OCT allowing a thread critical of them to be around. I'm not going to get my Proton Mail shill check this month, am I?

It really merits some thought.

My post was about the conflict of interest which should have been stated.

This is the funniest part in all of this. Conflict of interests presumes two things: that there is a conflict (there isn't) and that there is an interest (there isn't). I'm just a moderator. All that's different between us is that I have the ability to delete posts (mostly spam ones) and on rare occasions warn/ban users for not following the forum rules. I have no say or stake in which email provider OCT uses.

What's next? Do you think we'd also stifle discussions about Cloudflare since OCT uses them? Or discussions about Name.com, the domain registrar used? Check https://builtwith.com/offshorecorptalk.com for all the vendors of which the forum must only speak well. Come along and see how deep the rabbit hole of paranoid delusions goes.

just don't assume that your actions aren't understood.

No worries there. I'm fully aware you don't understand.

 

[mraleph]

What's more likely?

A moderator encouraging a thread remain on topic.

Or...

A moderator — paid off by Proton Mail — censoring a thread and astroturfing a thread to only be favorable for Proton Mail. This censorship and astroturfing taking the shape of doing absolutely nothing other than using an English 102 word like merits. Not a single post deleted. No warnings issued. No users banned.

Proton Mail is shaking at OCT allowing a thread critical of them to be around. I'm not going to get my Proton Mail shill check this month, am I?

It really merits some thought.


This is the funniest part in all of this. Conflict of interests presumes two things: that there is a conflict (there isn't) and that there is an interest (there isn't). I'm just a moderator. All that's different between us is that I have the ability to delete posts (mostly spam ones) and on rare occasions warn/ban users for not following the forum rules. I have no say or stake in which email provider OCT uses.

What's next? Do you think we'd also stifle discussions about Cloudflare since OCT uses them? Or discussions about Name.com, the domain registrar used? Check https://builtwith.com/offshorecorptalk.com for all the vendors of which the forum must only speak well. Come along and see how deep the rabbit hole of paranoid delusions goes.


No worries there. I'm fully aware you don't understand.

Regarding merits - you should improve thesaurus

"the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward."

The meaning of implied in your post is obvious.

Your other comments are for no comment - you speak for yourself. Enjoy.

 

[Sols]

Regarding merits - you should improve thesaurus

That's not usually how a thesaurus is used. I think you might be referring to a dictionary. Although it may contain additional information, a thesaurus is usually used for finding similar or related words. For example, if you look up the word amuse in a thesaurus, you will find words like charm, delight, gratify, and regale.

"the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward."

This makes me think that you have confused a thesaurus with a dictionary. What you are trying to do here is point to a single definition of a word in a dictionary.

To illustrate, let's look up another word. For example the word will. It's a word that carries a lot of different meanings.

I will get paid by Proton Mail.
My will is that Proton Mail pays me for being a shill.
In my will, I will leave my Proton Mail gold to my heirs.
Thanks to my will power, I will censor anyone who speaks ill of Proton Mail.

Enjoy.

Thanks, you too!

 

[mraleph]

Proper counsel for you would be to not further engage in discussion. Perhaps, a confusion exist?

Thesaurus is a category I referred to. Hope that you understood why - within context of your first post in this thread.

Play and enjoy - as stated, this is your playground.

I contributed as much as I could.

 

[JohnLocke]

I must honestly admit that I think this thread has gotten out of hand, and therefore I am closing it now.

There is nothing but noise, discussions about nonsense, and off-topic subjects after the first page. I simply do not understand what you are trying to achieve with this other than having almost all posts deleted and the discussion started over.

Please think about it next time, and let’s maintain a factual and informative tone here on OCT - this is simply not okay.