EU Proposes Law To KYC All Wallet Transfers

[joseph15]

I know multiple people that were drugged and their entire crypto net worth was stolen from them (multiple millions of dollars).
Sorry, I don't ever want to store a million dollars in my brain, or in USB stick. This sounds like a nightmare.


You were the first appealing to the wisdom of billionaires... shame you have nothing to say about this particular one, esp when it is right on the subject and had such a disastrous effect on anybody that tried to copy him.

That's exactly my point- trading\speculating is great. Mortgaging your house to buy BTC because it is taking over the world- that's called being brainwashed, and many of these billionaires are the ones doing the washing.

You’re using exceptions to the rule for your argument now.

Yeah, there’s people who get drugged and tortured and lose all their crypto (I’m not even going to begin to discuss how many mistakes you have to make for this happen). That can happen with literally every other store of wealth.. crypto is the safest if you’re smart.

I don’t see that as a valid argument against crypto being the best form of true ownership of your wealth.

And yeah, not all billionaires give great advice 100% of the time, but most of the time they tend to know what they’re talking about in relation to markets, economies, and the future. Again, Saylor telling people to sell the farm for Bitcoin is both ludicrous and an exception to the rule.

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Can we just agree to disagree. Here's the thing, people are passionate, and sometimes passions cloud peoples' judgments.

I'm not going to talk about the privacy features of private crypto, or low fees, DEFI or whatever, for me, It's very simple.

Does crypto has value? Yes. why? because the market says so, the supply and demand is there, in some cases the supply is more than the demand and the opposite is true. Just like any market.

Does the dollar has value? yes. why? because the market says so, , the supply and demand is there, in some cases the supply is more than the demand and the opposite is true. Just like any market.

See. It's way easier than it seems. investing all your money in one crypto project, is like investing all your money in a single stock and hoping that the price go up and we all know how this goes.

the key from all of this? Diversification. "BuT CrYpTo ScAm" "BuT bUt DolLaR mOneY gO bOoM" all of this is fear mongering bulls**t and we all know it. You can massively reduce your risk by Diversifying (I know I'm being mr obvious but bear with me). most of my wealth are diversified and managed by my hand picked team, but I have some money that I play with and take risks with.

This could be frontier and emerging markets, certain auctions, certain collectibles (like rare Turkish silverware ..etc) single undervalued (in my opinion) stocks, certain "risky" crypto projects that has value (I said risky because believe it or not, not all of crypto investments are risky, yeah shocker I know), this risk could be, safe/risky in this order: 50/50 70/30, 20/80 (yeah, I did this 20/80 in the past and it paid massively with the capital M) or whatever, also I'm in the debt collecting and loan business, and we all know the risk that comes with these kind of businesses.

the point I'm trying to make is that every one has a different risk appetite but I'm not sure why some people can't comprehend that.

Like why the unnecessary projection, I don't care If you want to invest all of your money on index funds or bonds, nobody cares.

Every single threads we have this kind of unproductive arguments, we hear about a new upcoming place, exciting emerging markets, great investment opportunities, and the likes, and the first thing we hear in the thread is "shithole" "corrupt country" "only stupid people do this and that" and personal attacks and insults, nothing productive to see.

I'm all for healthy skepticism, but I have a problem with people who try to treat their opinions as absolute facts.

I'm known for my disliking of US policy, I'm not in America f**k yeah boat nor I'm in f**k America boat, I'm somewhat in between, I don't and I won't ever live in the US but I invest there, and If people want to go and live there, then go for it, it's their personal life not mine, I'm not going to s**t on people who want to live in the US because I dislike certain aspects in the US. that's a terrible mentality to have.

so what I'm trying to say is that if you offer an argument and want to be heard, then you have to listen to the counter argument and at least make an effort to think about the other point of view, and If you don't want to do that, then simply don't f*****g bother and fill threads with unnecessary noises, this just makes you less credible and over all people wouldn't want to engage in any meaningful conversation with you.

so to summarize: don't be an insufferable a*****e, because people don't like insufferable assholes, yeah 1+1=2 who would've thought.

 

[troubled soul]

First Ignore the bad guy/illegal activities , They can use any system for their illegal activities. Not only crypto. China/India type country where capital control are from ages. People send money abroad via fake invoice/shelf companies even before internet, forget about Crypto Era.

I know multiple people that were drugged and their entire crypto net worth was stolen from them (multiple millions of dollars).
Sorry, I don't ever want to store a million dollars in my brain, or in USB stick. This sounds like a nightmare.

Biggest problem for honest people with crypto is this.
You can lose your sleep for this. In a second you lost your all money. Nobody can help in this.

If "EU Proposes Law To KYC All Wallet Transfers", It is good for Honest people. If someone stole your crypto someone can help here (not 100% sure about this.)

 

[12345]

Crypto only real use case is currency control/illegal activity? Yeah, tell that to the second richest man in the world who put it on the balance sheet of all of his companies and in his personal portfolio I'm sure he's just nuts, and all the hedge fund managers managing billions who do the same are all clueless.

They invested in crypto for speculation not because they think it will take over the world in my opinion. They would invest in pokemon cards too if they anticipated it to bring them profit

Another issue is safety I wouldnt feel safe holding my life savings in usb stick, I had my paxful account hacked and around 3k$ stolen it was my fault for not setting up sms verification but if I held it in a bank that would never happen

Crypto is not completely useless for example in 3rd world countries with high inflation and limited access to currencies like USD then crypto have a use there I know they're popular in Nigeria

 

[khinkali]

It sounds really logical and makes the person that repeats it sounds smart and sophisticated... posessing some secret knowledge about the financial systems that the regular "sheep" don't.
Sorry, if your "theory" is wrong 40 years in a row, it's a stupid theory. And now I'll wait for the usual conspiratorial replies that the crash is "just around the corner"... and "it won't end well", "this time it's different", "buy gold\silver"

M2

View data of a measure of the U.S. money supply that includes all components of M1 plus several less-liquid assets.

fred.stlouisfed.org

I see that M2 monetary stock has only grown 1139% in the last 40 years so perhaps we should all HODL USD after all? Maybe some other non-crypto currencies like EUR and GBP. Then we'll have diversity to protect us from inflation. And people on Twitter say that these Fiat currencies are "backed by the government", so they must be good.

The problem with USDC isn't that it's crypto, the problem is it's backed by USD and over the last two years, USD M2 grew 31%. If the Bitcoin miners had voted to issue 31% new BTC in that period, I'd be the first to lose confidence.

 

[Silvio]

I see that M2 monetary stock has only grown 1139% in the last 40 years so perhaps we should all HODL USD after all? Maybe some other non-crypto currencies like EUR and GBP. Then we'll have diversity to protect us from inflation. And people on Twitter say that these Fiat currencies are "backed by the government", so they must be good.

The problem with USDC isn't that it's crypto, the problem is it's backed by USD and over the last two years, USD M2 grew 31%. If the Bitcoin miners had voted to issue 31% new BTC in that period, I'd be the first to lose confidence.

And how many new Shitcoins were created in the last 5 years? Coinmarketcap currently lists 5804 (!) currencies. Thats about 5000%+ growth in crypto currency issuance in the last 20 years.
I gotta tell you, this sounds dangerous... they are increasing the supply massively... it won't end well

Do all these currencies have value? Give me a break.

Also, please show me where did I say you should keep money in USD or in cash at all. Classic straw man argument.

All I'm saying is that central banks have been printing dollars, Euros and Yens for many many decades and so far the system hasn't imploded. Anybody that claims the global financial markets is crashing has been dead wrong for many decades.

P.S. When the markets did correct, so did crypto, it's not really a protection against inflation. Protection against inflation = REAL assets like real estate, farmland, commodities, etc. Crypto isn't real.

 

[troubled soul]

As long as people believe in something that asset class survive.
Like Gold , It produce nothing but people believe in it since ages , People believe
"Somebody pay high for their gold in future"
same as "Somebody pay high for their Crypto in future"

Coin with unlimited supply does not have future.
But with limited supply like Bitcoin have some future.

I believe "Price is debatable things"
People forget its real use.

Today million people usage, Let's assume only few thousand people use Crypto in future.
It will still survive, Price will decrease surely but the P2P transfer is still chance of survival. (With or without Government Regulation )

Like people use Cash/Gold in old time (To save themselves from Government ), Crypto is new age Gold/Cash.

 

[khinkali]

Do all these currencies have value?

No! There are crypto bubbles as there have been tech bubbles. Some will be like boo.com and pets.com, others might be like amazon.com, google.com and facebook.com

Bitcoin dominance is high. If you add other tokens with some use (ETH, XRP, fiat and other backed tokens) then the growth you see hasn't really happened.

The system behind USD, EUR hasn't imploded, yet their value has. Just slowly. Let's not be slowly boiled frogs.

Also, please show me where did I say you should keep money in USD or in cash at all. Classic straw man argument.

You didn't say that. I didn't say you said that. I drew a parallel for hopefully obvious reasons.

Protection against inflation = REAL assets like real estate, farmland, commodities, etc. Crypto isn't real.

Here is the problem. Crypto is about ledgers. That ledger can represent ownership in gold, fiat, real estate, commodities, etc. It's like saying "NFTs don't represent anything real". Some (famous) NFTs represent no more than a signature (is the baseball worth thousands, or the signature on the baseball?). Other NFTs represent a claim to the physical work of art, bottle of wine, etc.

I completely get that BTC, LTC, DOGE etc. are not backed by anything other than belief that they will be used and valued in future. Those are currently a large part of crypto use, speculation, trade, whatever. But those are not all that crypto is. Tokenisation with smart contracts has enormous benefits over the legacy financial system. People really should look into Paxos Trust and they way they are going about things. Combine that with deFi using smart contracts for loans, flash loans etc. that don't require the slow and expensive legacy systems and also don't socialise losses as happened in 2008.

This was my original point about this thread subject. "EU Proposes Law To KYC All Wallet Transfers". For now I believe that the VASP and other regulations will be about taxation (disguised as fighting terrorism); at the extreme maybe banning privacy coins and mixers, banning VASPs from interacting with private wallets and increasing the scope of regulation (e.g. smaller and smaller reporting thresholds). This isn't much different form Sweden's demonetisation where it's getting harder to deposit cash.

But what about the other problem? Modern Monetary Theory is now Modern Monetary Practice, so governments are getting dangerously addicted to printing their way out of budget holes. They have lost their ability to balance their books and they will be in trouble if people realise they can walk around with tokenised assets and stop accepting 31% monetary inflation in 2 years. Their problem isn't crypto, it's not having a monopoly in its supply. CBDCs will being a sudden increase in crypto awareness to people who currently don't care.

 

[Martin Everson]

Crypto only real use case is currency control/illegal activity? Yeah, tell that to the second richest man in the world who put it on the balance sheet of all of his companies and in his personal portfolio I'm sure he's just nuts, and all the hedge fund managers managing billions who do the same are all clueless.

It's easy to gamble on crypto with other peoples money,.....lol.

But if you think central banks will be forced to invest in NFTs or pokemon cards (or BTC) you have been brainwashed.

100% correct. This made me laugh out loud

 

[Silvio]

The system behind USD, EUR hasn't imploded, yet their value has. Just slowly. Let's not be slowly boiled frogs.

100% agree. That's why I won't tell anybody to hold cash but to invest in real assets.

Crypto is not a real asset and it is not a protection against inflation. By definition it is the exact opposite of a real asset, because it is not real, it's fictional and has unlimited supply (yes BTC supply is limited, but new shitcoins are minted every day thus making the supply unlimited).

Bitcoin dominance is high. If you add other tokens with some use (ETH, XRP, fiat and other backed tokens) then the growth you see hasn't really happened.

BTC dominance is going down constantly for years. Right now BTC market cap is only 46.94% of the total market cap. Global Cryptocurrency Market Charts | CoinMarketCap
By definition this means that the supply of crypto currencies is unlimited, every day dozens of new shitcoins are created.

But what about the other problem? Modern Monetary Theory is now Modern Monetary Practice, so governments are getting dangerously addicted to printing their way out of budget holes. They have lost their ability to balance their books and they will be in trouble if people realise they can walk around with tokenised assets and stop accepting 31% monetary inflation in 2 years. Their problem isn't crypto, it's not having a monopoly in its supply. CBDCs will being a sudden increase in crypto awareness to people who currently don't care.

I totally agree. Now do the same about Tether printing billions of coins that we all know are backed by nothing...

that don't require the slow and expensive legacy systems and also don't socialise losses as happened in 2008.

Crypto socializes losses like nothing else: a minority of people made a lot of money, while the average person bought late and lost money.

As long as people believe in something that asset class survive.
Like Gold , It produce nothing but people believe in it since ages , People believe
"Somebody pay high for their gold in future"
same as "Somebody pay high for their Crypto in future"

I'm not a super fan of Gold, but at least Gold has some real-world uses, and has a 5000 years history of being a store of value.

 

[JackAlabama]

And how many new Shitcoins were created in the last 5 years? Coinmarketcap currently lists 5804 (!) currencies. Thats about 5000%+ growth in crypto currency issuance in the last 20 years.
I gotta tell you, this sounds dangerous... they are increasing the supply massively... it won't end well

Do all these currencies have value? Give me a break.

Also, please show me where did I say you should keep money in USD or in cash at all. Classic straw man argument.

All I'm saying is that central banks have been printing dollars, Euros and Yens for many many decades and so far the system hasn't imploded. Anybody that claims the global financial markets is crashing has been dead wrong for many decades.

P.S. When the markets did correct, so did crypto, it's not really a protection against inflation. Protection against inflation = REAL assets like real estate, farmland, commodities, etc. Crypto isn't real.

These are cryptocurrency projects whereas its space has a massive inflation. No wonder as every schmuck thinks he can fork btc and make millions
However that's nothing new. In dotcom, also basically only amazon made it out alive.

Bitcoin is very well real. As are any other things digital. You can see it if you value your data or not and if you think a new iphone without your data / access etc. has the same value like any other iphone without your data. Also you cannot touch math, phsyics, viruses and yet they are real.
Bitcoin will be the one which will make it out alive with maybe one or the other well run project (which is more a startup investing game than being any form of currency).
It is just what is demanded by the market during this push into a digital world.

 

[khinkali]

Crypto is not a real asset

I have lost track of what you think "crypto" means. "it is not real, it's fictional" is true in that an entry on any leger is fictional. If it represents a real underlying asset then that asset is not fictional. Crypto can represent many real world things.

New coins are created all the time; all but the top coins have lost dominance since 2018. The evidence is linked above.

The reason that USDT coins are backed by nothing is that the underlying asset is backed by nothing, although I admit that the Twitter people like to say "dollars are backed by the Government!" as if that means something.

Meanwhile PAXG coins are backed by London Good Delivery gold bars, stored in Brink’s. Crypto is not just Bitcoins and Dogecoins.

Socialising losses doesn't mean that the gambler/investor loses their capital. Socialising their losses means that those losses are passed to innocent victims, as happened in 2008. deFi is starting to look a lot better for humanity.

 

[tyrexoid]

Do these regulations affect people who are incorporated in Hong Kong or Singapore for example and issue their crypto out of there? Or it could only affect the local companies operating within the jurisdiction in question? (EU/US)
I think if some jurisdictions will do very strict crackdown on crypto ease of use and convenience, and features that DeFi provides, they'll be simply losing business and value generated, to other locations who found the balance between restrictions and illegal use concerns/KYC stuff. It makes sense actually, to require some transparency on very high value transactions like 1m$+ and so on, but there's no technical way to enforce that anyway - if one generates a wallet address and receives huge amounts of bitcoins from another unidentified wallet, what can anyone do about that? Satoshi was not found, and all governments in the world pretty sure were interested to find him or any clue to who he was. Despite him having many wallets and many BTC, nobody still knows who he is.

 

[Martin Everson]

Satoshi was not found, and all governments in the world pretty sure were interested to find him or any clue to who he was.

You think Satoshi is a real person and not just a US government department?

 

[JackAlabama]

You think Satoshi is a real person and not just a US government department?

Satoshi is AI which could post on forums from the future and thus save humanity, at least those who believe in it. That is quite obvious isn't it?

 

[FastPony]

This is more serious than it seems.

Haven't read the thread and haven't read the particular article linked, but this is just about transfers between custodial wallets. Who cares, that part of crypto is fucked anyway.

The "serious" part starts once they've locked down the custodial system, everyone has stopped using it, and they start attacking peer-to-peer exchanges where people convert between fiat and cryptocurrency without the involvement of companies.

The direction is the disturbing news, not this particular event itself.

 

[Vor]

I had the view that crypto would be clamped down on hard by the government which to be honest I still think it will BUT I think it'll be mostly useless. The big boys in the room are the IRS and reality is they cannot at scale track this stuff. The technology is advancing faster than they can regulate. DEXs and Atomic Swaps largely do away with the need for even say Coinbase. Their not even close to cracking Monero and by the time they get 1% closer to regulating this stuff it'll be 10 steps ahead of where it's at now.

They try to make tax policy unfavorable to it like in the USA with all transactions being a taxable event but tbh what percent of people are compliant with this? 0.01%? They cant even perform domestic audits on grandmas bakery at a meaningful scale. The EuRoPeaN UnIoN I wouldn't be too concerned with at all their just America's overseas colonies at this point.

The EU in particular says they will focus on on/off ramps but this is pretty easy to avoid KYC just go the P2P route to cash out. They cant stop guys selling each other heroin and they cant stop people trading crypto. Pandora's box was opened they should've moved on this stuff 10 years ago if they wanted to before their were DEX's and Atomic Swaps.

Cryptocurrency's will/are creating big problems in that "bank secrecy" is coming back. I could hold $1B in a monero wallet and fly to another countryr and no one knows.

 

[khinkali]

The EU in particular says they will focus on on/off ramps but this is pretty easy to avoid KYC just go the P2P route to cash out

They will move the burden of proof. If you buy a house with BTC from Coinbase or Gemini, then that is OK because you've probably been taxed somewhere. If your blockchain records don't track back to taxable source of funds/income/wealth then pay 50% tax. Simple. They will pretend it's about terrorism, but it's about tax.

Except that isn't their only problem. They discovered MMT and have been practicing it for 13 years. There is a risk that a heterogeneous currency environment will deprive them of money printing and inflation tax. They don't know what to do about this yet. They are probably working hard on this. Unless the Western Military Powers can govern the world or do deals with China etc, their currency hegemony will fail. They don't want that to happen. Can they find an answer? It's too early to tell.

 

[EuroKiss]

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/el-...rs-from-tax-on-bitcoin-price-gains-2021-09-13

From 1945 to 1989 the World was divided between Capitalism and Communism.
From 2021 it will be between Crypto-friendly and MMT-lovers countries.

 

[369]

crypto is world wide planned for over 2 decades.......you thinking crypto is not governmental controlled makes you naive.Did you ever study what they did to the tiniest competition of fiat currency ?
EL-Salvador is also not a good place.It's the first private country which allowes anyone to open private smart cities.