How to avoid wealth tax in Switzerland?

[Blockvol]

What are you talking to private bankers on the phone and telling them your situation? It is like talking to a used car salesman lol
And why do you want to get into the banking system so desperately right now, what has changed?

Who should I contact other than the used car salesman? xD I tried two law firms in Monaco to help me get my residency there, but they seem to have so much else to do, it's unbelievable... So I stopped running after them to take the steps myself to settle in Monaco, so I called a private banker directly because I have to open an account there.

I explained the origin of my funds (amateur crypto mining in 2015) with an invoice authenticated by a bailiff of the purchase of the mining equipment. But that didn't seem to convince him because the traceability of the funds afterwards is no longer possible because I played too much with my cryptos in seven years...

For Switzerland, I will also need an account to be able to make nice deposits in 1 to 2 years, or why not make loans against collateral and thus not touch my assets and therefore enrich myself. Could it also make me more credible in the eyes of the Monegasque private banker if I wanted to try my luck in Monaco again?

 

[Marzio]

Surely there must be something i'm missing. All this thread is to avoid paying less than 1% of your net worth?



How did you calculate your taxes to get 300K/year? Try this calculator, do you obtain the same result?

 

[Blockvol]

Surely there must be something i'm missing. All this thread is to avoid paying less than 1% of your net worth?

Yes. Because today it's 1%, and tomorrow it will be 2,5% like in Geneva for the "tax shield" for "covid purposes", because those leftist bastards managed to pass a law to rob the rich some more and more.

And I repeat, I prefer to have a low profile and not to be listed as rich for the moment, the time to see the bad situation evolve...

How did you calculate your taxes to get 300K/year? Try this calculator, do you obtain the same result?

Yes, the same calculator and same result. For a net worth of 30m€ in Geneva it's 295’033 CHF and for Lugano, it's 130’149 CHF.

Because bitcoin will grow enormously in 5-10 years (I'm young), only lump sum will be possible anyway for me.
For the "tax shield" (Geneva and Vaud only, not Ticino), I find it difficult to understand the calculation, I have different results than examples found on the internet... otherwise I will be able to go and live in these French-speaking cantons.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

You must really love Switzerland to be thinking of moving there while there are so many alternatives with zero or very low taxes… which are especially good for a young guy

 

[Marzio]

Because bitcoin will grow enormously in 5-10 years

Well this is to be seen but if your wish is to live in that area while being tax free there's a way and a really easy one.

Step 1: Obtain a passport that will let you freely enter EU (if you already have an EU passport, even better. If not the St. Lucia's one is great choice because it's the only one that will let you obtain a passport with an investment in non-interest-bearing government bonds that you will have to keep for 5 years. After 5 years they will refund the money. So it's a free passport.).

Step 2: Obtain tax residency in Georgia without any staying requirements thanks to the HNWI program. Georgia is a territorial taxation country and according to the law crypto are not sourced anywhere hence is tax exempt.

Step 3: Now your tax residency is in Georgia and you could freely live in Switzerland up to 90 days and depending on the passport you got in the first step up to 90 days / 180 days in France or Italy without triggering any tax residency.

Step 4: Form a Swiss association about anything, for example crypto enthusiasts (that would be really amusing) in the place where you want to reside in Switzerland that will be sponsored by yourself. A Swiss association can rent / buy apartments, own cars and so on.

Basically it's a way for you to have a place where to reside in Switzerland and use a car without being the owner so you can move between Swiss / EU as you please.

To form the association you will likely need a resident Swiss fiduciary that will cost you couple K / year.

How was the saying "rich owns nothing but control everything"?

@James Spader if you feel this post is "too much" for the public feel free to move it inside the mentor group.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Step 3: Now your tax residency is in Georgia and you could freely live in Switzerland up to 90 days and depending on the passport you got in the first step up to 90 days / 180 days in France or Italy without triggering any tax residency.

Where is he going to stay for the remaining 9 months?
This doesn’t work: if he doesn’t stay in Georgia he will be deemed to be tax resident elsewhere (most likely in Switzerland).

 

[Marzio]

Where is he going to stay for the remaining 9 months?
This doesn’t work: if he doesn’t stay in Georgia he will be deemed to be tax resident elsewhere (most likely in Switzerland).

In Switzerland you are considered tax resident if you stay more than 90 days every 6 months.

The strategy will work like this:

90 days in Switzerland
90 days in Italy / France near the border so he could drive with his car.

Guess what?

After 90 days in italy or France you are still allowed to spend 90 days in Switzerland without triggering tax residency there.

Switzerland will not consider him tax resident because he will stay less than 90 days and neither France or Italy.

Add some holiday time in the mix (Spain?) to even lower time spent in Switzerland and nobody will bother him.

If he will use the Swiss association, Switzerland will not even know that he is staying there because his name will not show up anywhere.

HNWI in Georgia doesn't require you to be present in the country. Read the article. You will only have to pay 25K gel a year.

 

[backpacker]

Where is he going to stay for the remaining 9 months?
This doesn’t work: if he doesn’t stay in Georgia he will be deemed to be tax resident elsewhere (most likely in Switzerland).

Correct!
Add to it the fact that not even local Georgian banks will accept this laughable HNWI status for tax purposes. It also needs to be renewed every year and since this status is about to be phased out all this is short lived.

HNWI in Georgia doesn't require you to be present in the country. Read the article. You will only have to pay 25K gel a year.

You should not promote such a status when you only know it from the internet.
Moreover, nobody has to "pay" GEL 25k for this nonsense.

 

[denniz07]

I can't, thank you if you can post them here, if not too bad.

Look for swissquate, sygnum and seba

 

[Marzio]

You should not promote such a status when you only know it from the internet.

So do you.

this status is about to be phased out all this is short lived.

Do you work in the Georgian parliament to know such an insider informations?

Your claims are based on your assumptions that could be very much wrong so let's stick to what the law says.

Moreover, nobody has to "pay" GEL 25k for this nonsense.

This is what the article says. I spoke to various Georgian attorneys and all confirmed that it works like this.

If you have a differnt experience please enlight me.

But you know what?

Who cares about Georgia?

Does MM2H suits you better?

 

[JackAlabama]

Yes. Because today it's 1%, and tomorrow it will be 2,5% like in Geneva for the "tax shield" for "covid purposes", because those leftist bastards managed to pass a law to rob the rich some more and more.

And I repeat, I prefer to have a low profile and not to be listed as rich for the moment, the time to see the bad situation evolve...



Yes, the same calculator and same result. For a net worth of 30m€ in Geneva it's 295’033 CHF and for Lugano, it's 130’149 CHF.

Because bitcoin will grow enormously in 5-10 years (I'm young), only lump sum will be possible anyway for me.
For the "tax shield" (Geneva and Vaud only, not Ticino), I find it difficult to understand the calculation, I have different results than examples found on the internet... otherwise I will be able to go and live in these French-speaking cantons.

Than you have to live like that. And talking and telling a private banker which you have no clue who he is on the phone and even better in Europe your life story even does not exactly fits the def of "low profile".

 

[Blockvol]

Switzerland will not consider him tax resident because he will stay less than 90 days and neither France or Italy.

Add some holiday time in the mix (Spain?) to even lower time spent in Switzerland and nobody will bother him.

You forgot Monaco which is in the middle, with the possibility of living there for 90 days without having to be a tax resident.

No but seriously, this is getting hilarious! The goal was to live in Switzerland, not to find a way to have to stay there as little as possible!! X'D

Finally, if I have to rent 4 permanent homes at an average of 5k€ per month, it's the same as paying a lump sum...

You must really love Switzerland to be thinking of moving there while there are so many alternatives with zero or very low taxes… which are especially good for a young guy

On paper at least, I don't see any country that have as many good features as this one. I think I'll end up paying a lump sum. My wife says I'm an extremist...

Look for swissquate, sygnum and seba

Thank you so much !

Than you have to live like that. And talking and telling a private banker which you have no clue who he is on the phone and even better in Europe your life story even does not exactly fits the def of "low profile".

One story for the banker, another for the State. And yes I have a low profile when I spend 6k€/month for the moment when I have 30m€, it's just 0,24% per year...

 

[wellington]

Hello,

I hesitate to move to Switzerland, on the French or Italian side, because all the criteria suit me except one... Wealth tax!

I calculated that in Geneva I will have to pay 300k€/year, and in Lugano "only" 130k€/year. I tried to do the calculations with the lump-sum tax but it doesn't help me at all because I don't work, but live only thanks to a capital (entirely in Bitcoin).

Apart from minimizing my fortune (Bitcoins are easy to hide) to only €2m (in case Bitcoin continues to rise) and paying only €8,000/year, I don't see how to avoid it, and it's going to be a problem for me if I want to buy a home for €4m for exemple : where will my difference come from? The State would quickly understand the attempt at concealment...

I've heard that the Swiss may be able to deduct their debts from their wealth, but how do you get into debt to the tune of tens of millions of euros?! In addition, I will be forced to leave my Bitcoins as collateral at the bank and therefore will be at their mercy...

If you have any ideas, thank you in advance!

I *probably* have a larger wealth than you simply because i've been in BTC since 2010... and only pay 0.05% wealth tax in Switzerland each year, it was set by my accountant years ago and never changed, and never updated, and not too many questions were asked at the time....

Chances are unless you are open book, it will be set at xCHF and just continue to pay and don't bank in the country for more than the usuals, or within Europe (CRS) etc if tax resident there.

 

[denniz07]

On paper at least, I don't see any country that have as many good features as this one. I think I'll end up paying a lump sum. My wife says I'm an extremist...

Can understand you. I'm in the same situation. Although already made the move to Switzerland (but didn't payed taxes yet, not sure if I gonna show everything..)
As you said, wealth tax sucks, since you have to show all your assets. Wouldn't do it if the possibility is there. So I think Lump Tax isn't that bad to be honest. Lets say it is 1% then you should definitely be able to make more then 1% from your wealth. If not, then you are doing something wrong (I'm not yet there as well... since most is crypto, but I think it is a bad idea to have all the egss in one basket).

One question regarding lump tax. Do you know which information they need for it? Maybe this would be also an option for me.
I mean if they also want to know all your assets and so on then it doesn't make a difference. As far as I know only few people are getting the lump tax in Switzerland.

PS: Just found this. Its for zug

Kanton Zug erhöht Grenze für Pauschalsteuer

Der Kanton Zug verschärft die Abgabenregeln: Die Mindestgrenze für Pauschalbesteuerung liegt künftig höher. Gerade Ausländer müssen jetzt erheblich mehr Vermögen vorweisen.

www.handelszeitung.ch

According to this, if I understand it correct, you can apply to lump-sum taxation only if your net worth is more then 11 million. That means that you still would somehow be forced to show your assets. Maybe I don't understand it, so please correct me if I got it wrong.

 

[backpacker]

So do you.



Do you work in the Georgian parliament to know such an insider informations?

Your claims are based on your assumptions that could be very much wrong so let's stick to what the law says.



This is what the article says. I spoke to various Georgian attorneys and all confirmed that it works like this.

If you have a differnt experience please enlight me.

But you know what?

Who cares about Georgia?

Does MM2H suits you better?

1. No insider info necessary. I already explained it to you in another thread.
2. The article you linked does not say anything about paying GEL 25k p.a. . Nobody has to pay anything (except some meager government processing fees) for this status. Try reading the article before posting!
3. It is difficult to enlighten someone who does not do basic research. This forum is full of knowledgeable posts about Georgia and it's tax system (with links to sources). Just search and read.
4. What you posted in #25 can bring people in serious trouble. There is a good reason why the Georgian HNWI status is not exactly popular: Have you ever seen this certificate? Do you know what data it contains? Ever spoken to a local bank how they treat people who come up with this nonsense certificate?
5. I've never been in favour of MM2H after its revamping.

 

[Marzio]

No insider info necessary. I already explained it to you in another thread.

Posting your assumptions based on your theories means explaining somehing? You are speculating what COULD happen.

Georgia is still territorial taxation and has a HNWI tax regime.

Will it end?

It will end someday but till now it's an option so why not talking about it?

The article you linked does not say anything about paying GEL 25k p.a. . Nobody has to pay anything (except some meager government processing fees) for this status. Try reading the article before posting!

I admit i badly worded it but i meant this.

It is difficult to enlighten someone who does not do basic research. This forum is full of knowledgeable posts about Georgia and it's tax system (with links to sources). Just search and read.

I did my research and spoke to differet lawyers in Georgia and simply i have a different opinion than yours

What you posted in #25 can bring people in serious trouble. There is a good reason why the Georgian HNWI status is not exactly popular: Have you ever seen this certificate? Do you know what data it contains? Ever spoken to a local bank how they treat people who come up with this nonsense certificate?

Fair enough, i don't.

What's the problem with the certificate?

 

[backpacker]

What's the problem with the certificate?

Well, check this https://internationalizenow.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/certificate-of-residence-georgia.jpg .
It has not changed until today and will not change since too few are issued.

You will spot that this is not exactly a serious tax certificate, specifically when your foreign passport number serves as tax number.
If you want to make use out of HNWI in GE, it is best to combine it with real-estate purchase worth min. USD 100k. That way you can have a short-term residence permit which at least gives this certificate some sort of legitimacy - even though banks will still be overly suspicious.

 

[Marzio]

this is not exactly a serious tax certificate, specifically when your foreign passport number serves as tax number.

LOL this indeed is a joke.

So which serious tax residency options with little time spent in the country are we left with?

 

[backpacker]

LOL this indeed is a joke.

So which serious tax residency options with little time spent in the country are we left with?

In Georgia there is none. The only serious option there is ordinary tax residency (= 183 days in any rolling 12-months-period).

Aside from some SE-Asian countries, you will end up with Cyprus and Switzerland.
Others in this forum have mentioned Mexico but I have zero experience with countries in the Americas.

 

[Marzio]

I have zero experience with countries in the Americas

I followed for a while the Paraguay route but even if you get the cedula you'll have to stay there for 120 days.