Private bank requesting tax residence certificate

[troubled soul]

You can solve your all problem by just trusting Dubai bank (It is very hard but risk worth it, If you do not want to live in Dubai)........Just do not open any bank account outside Dubai....Only Use Dubai bank for all your need....IMHO Dubai bank never will ask you for TRC....As they have your Emirate ID and Address which you provide......Just my 2 cent

 

[hortm]

You can solve your all problem by just trusting Dubai bank (It is very hard but risk worth it, If you do not want to live in Dubai)........Just do not open any bank account outside Dubai....Only Use Dubai bank for all your need....IMHO Dubai bank never will ask you for TRC....As they have your Emirate ID and Address which you provide......Just my 2 cent

no. it's no go in our case. at least not whole investment in one country. I still want to try finding answer to my question - if there is way to get TRC only owning apartment - but not visiting.

 

[troubled soul]

if there is way to get TRC only owning apartment - but not visiting.

Federal Tax Authority - 404

tax.gov.ae

Applicant is a legal person:

• Trade License.
• Proof of Authorization (Establishment Contract or the Power of Attorney).
• Copy of the audited financial accounts certified by a certified audit firm.
• A bank statement issued by a local bank covering 6 months within the financial year related to the request.
• Certified copy of the Memorandum of Association (if applicable).

Applicant is a legal person:

• Trade License.
• Proof of Authorization (Establishment Contract or the Power of Attorney).
• Copy of the audited financial accounts certified by a certified audit firm.
• A bank statement issued by a local bank covering 6 months within the financial year related to the request.
• Certified copy of the Memorandum of Association (if applicable).]

Did you try to get it from here ? Seems may be work for your requirement ....

 

[hortm]

Federal Tax Authority - 404

tax.gov.ae

Did you try to get it from here ? Seems may be work for your requirement ....

I am not talking about legal person. I am talking about individual person. Please read what I wrote before. That online interface and wording of legislation are different - seems like TRC can be received "manually" based only on fact of apartment ownership.

 

[troubled soul]

I am not talking about legal person. I am talking about individual person. Please read what I wrote before. That online interface and wording of legislation are different - seems like TRC can be received "manually" based only on fact of apartment ownership.

Sorry If I understood or mention something wrong....my English is not that Good...Sorry again....

 

[Konstanz]

In most case you would never need TRC. But if you get investigated by home country they will definetely ask for tax TRC. They will also write request to UAE and ask if you really lived in the country.
This happened to me. They asked for TRC and wrote letters. In case you cannot provide TRC this can be problematic. This would be just additional argument to them that you are not genuine resident in UAE..

I don't say TRC is magical free pass paper. But if you cannot produce at least TRC, good luck proving your new tax residence in court As many these paper you have, the better your chance is to be on safe side

 

[karishi]

TRC has term on it. You get it only for certain period. If there is no escape from 90 days rule the that won't work if you. Before getting TRC online you provide them entry/exit certificate which is generated automatically.

yes that's what I was saying. If I will want to buy anything over a certain sum in a OECD country, I will have to repsect the UAE rules and get the TRC in the previous 2 years. There is no other way around it.

no. it's no go in our case. at least not whole investment in one country. I still want to try finding answer to my question - if there is way to get TRC only owning apartment - but not visiting.

even if this was possible, which I don't think it is, your TRC would be worthless in this case as you had actually spent zero days in the country. And to clarify, if you trigger residency in some country, the TRC is worthless too. The TRC is necessary but not sufficient to prove your foreign tax residency status, lots of other things come into play.

 

[hortm]

yes that's what I was saying. If I will want to buy anything over a certain sum in a OECD country, I will have to repsect the UAE rules and get the TRC in the previous 2 years. There is no other way around it.


even if this was possible, which I don't think it is, your TRC would be worthless in this case as you had actually spent zero days in the country. And to clarify, if you trigger residency in some country, the TRC is worthless too. The TRC is necessary but not sufficient to prove your foreign tax residency status, lots of other things come into play.

Let's put is this way - someone just may need TRC and I am wondering if there are lawyer or someone who can legally get it while person was not in UAE, but has his own real estate in UAE and Golden visa.

 

[Sols]

AFAIK, they do automatic check against the immigration authority when getting a TRC. If your passport hasn't spent enough days in UAE, you won't be able to get a TRC.

 

[karishi]

Let's put is this way - someone just may need TRC and I am wondering if there are lawyer or someone who can legally get it while person was not in UAE, but has his own real estate in UAE and Golden visa.

I totally understood what you are asking but it's not possible, it doesn't work that way. when you submit a request for the TRC you must submit also data from immigration that demonstrates that you have been in the country. If they issued TRC without you being in the country, TRCs would be worthless. Before the reform earlier this year the minimum stay was 183 days and it has been lowered to 90 if you have a property, but you must stay 90 days. There might be excpetions, like if you work for a UAE company which forces you to stay abroad for 300 days a year, maybe the UAE would issue a TRC, which would be worthless if you spent 300 days in France and France was asking you a TRC

AFAIK, they do automatic check against the immigration authority when getting a TRC. If your passport hasn't spent enough days in UAE, you won't be able to get a TRC.

yeah they get data from immigration or ask you to provide it, and immigration knows when you have entered/exited the country as everything is tracked

 

[hortm]

I totally understood what you are asking but it's not possible, it doesn't work that way. when you submit a request for the TRC you must submit also data from immigration that demonstrates that you have been in the country. If they issued TRC without you being in the country, TRCs would be worthless. Before the reform earlier this year the minimum stay was 183 days and it has been lowered to 90 if you have a property, but you must stay 90 days. There might be excpetions, like if you work for a UAE company which forces you to stay abroad for 300 days a year, maybe the UAE would issue a TRC, which would be worthless if you spent 300 days in France and France was asking you a TRC


yeah they get data from immigration or ask you to provide it, and immigration knows when you have entered/exited the country as everything is tracked

I am still not getting it. The wording says ANY. One of the items is having place of residence. it does not say amount of days. According to that list, IMHO, TRC is possible without presence. Getting online it is NOT possible because website requires entry/exit certificate indeed. But manually I think it may be possible.

"If they issued TRC without you being in the country" - TRC does not show if I was in the country or no.

AFAIK, they do automatic check against the immigration authority when getting a TRC. If your passport hasn't spent enough days in UAE, you won't be able to get a TRC.

At website I see that yes. Manually (of lawyer submits according to first item from list ANY conditions to be eligible) - I don't know and that is what I want to find out.

 

[karishi]

I am still not getting it. The wording says ANY. One of the items is having place of residence. it does not say amount of days. According to that list, IMHO, TRC is possible without presence. Getting online it is NOT possible because website requires entry/exit certificate indeed. But manually I think it may be possible.

"If they issued TRC without you being in the country" - TRC does not show if I was in the country or no.


At website I see that yes. Manually (of lawyer submits according to first item from list ANY conditions to be eligible) - I don't know and that is what I want to find out.

I gues you are refrring to this:
1. If his usual or primary place of residence and the centre of his financial and personal interests are in the State, or he meets the conditions and criteria determined by a decision from the Minister.
As I said, the minister can decide what he wants, this is not a democracy, but in normal democracies this is translated as such: "if you have wife and kids resident in the country or have participations in companies in the country". So if you are the CEO of a company in the UAE or your family lives in the UAE you are resident in the UAE.
To clarify, for any EU country, if you have family in that country, you pay taxes in that country, even if you live 365 days in the UAE.

 

[hortm]

I gues you are refrring to this:
1. If his usual or primary place of residence and the centre of his financial and personal interests are in the State, or he meets the conditions and criteria determined by a decision from the Minister.
As I said, the minister can decide what he wants, this is not a democracy, but in normal democracies this is translated as such: "if you have wife and kids resident in the country or have participations in companies in the country". So if you are the CEO of a company in the UAE or your family lives in the UAE you are resident in the UAE.
To clarify, for any EU country, if you have family in that country, you pay taxes in that country, even if you live 365 days in the UAE.

I assume minister wants investors to do business there. So, I guess it may work if some lawyer knows minister or in just may work if one applies for TRC with entry/exit certificate showing zero days.

 

[karishi]

I assume minister wants investors to do business there. So, I guess it may work if some lawyer knows minister or in just may work if one applies for TRC with entry/exit certificate showing zero days.

You will find plenty of lawyers in Dubai which will claim this and steal you some money, you just have to go out and ask....and Dubai wants you to do business, that's why with 2 days a year in the emirate you can avoid CRS. But you will not get a TRC for free, they also want you to spend money in Dubai

 

[hortm]

But still. Let me get back to initial question in this thread.
I have zero chance being investigated in my home country - I do not have to pay taxes from foreign income (in my case - stock trading). I just do not want authorities here to know how much money I have.

Question - is there any real chance, for instance, Swiss or US private bank shall require TRC for some reason? Or there is "more chance for me to be hit by lightning" and I should not worry about TRCs and just provide UAE or Bahraini residence visa / ID card / Utility bills?

 

[Sols]

Question - is there any real chance, for instance, Swiss or US private bank shall require TRC for some reason? Or there is "more chance for me to be hit by lightning" and I should not worry about TRCs and just provide UAE or Bahraini residence visa / ID card / Utility bills?

The problem is you're asking a question to which the answer is changing as we discuss. A year or two ago, it would've been easy and accurate to dismiss requests for TRCs as something very unusual. But now that UAE is on international watch lists and black lists (for tax evasion and money laundering), KYC requirements are tightening.

UAE has a big problem with paper residence, where people get visas there and but don't actually live there. Banks have known this for years. Regulators have finally caught up.

Your Swiss private bank probably doesn't actually care, but regulators care. Regulators put pressure on banks to de-risk, meaning to impose stricter checks on funds for transactions involving high risk jurisdictions (such as UAE). This is why the amount of documents required just to maintain a basic banking relationship keeps increasing year after year.

 

[troubled soul]

Better Idea will be Find the bank who accept you as a Digital nomad without Tax residence certificate ....
I started New thread for this discussion here

Private bank for Digital Nomad without Tax residence certificate ?

There is a lot buzz around TRC and bank account..... I started thread to find the private bank who are happily onboard you as a Digital Nomad .....without any Tax residence certificate.... Which bank can do this magic for you ? Which bank are Digital Nomad friendly ? Who do not ask for Tax...

www.offshorecorptalk.com

 

[hortm]

The problem is you're asking a question to which the answer is changing as we discuss. A year or two ago, it would've been easy and accurate to dismiss requests for TRCs as something very unusual. But now that UAE is on international watch lists and black lists (for tax evasion and money laundering), KYC requirements are tightening.

UAE has a big problem with paper residence, where people get visas there and but don't actually live there. Banks have known this for years. Regulators have finally caught up.

Your Swiss private bank probably doesn't actually care, but regulators care. Regulators put pressure on banks to de-risk, meaning to impose stricter checks on funds for transactions involving high risk jurisdictions (such as UAE). This is why the amount of documents required just to maintain a basic banking relationship keeps increasing year after year.

Do you know where exactly is any official info on that potential pressure from regulators? Like what/how they will request that? I have found something vague and weak only here -

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/residence-citizenship-by-investment/#:~:text=Potentially%20high%2Drisk%20CBI%2FRBI,the%20location%20offering%20the%20scheme.

The problem is you're asking a question to which the answer is changing as we discuss. A year or two ago, it would've been easy and accurate to dismiss requests for TRCs as something very unusual. But now that UAE is on international watch lists and black lists (for tax evasion and money laundering), KYC requirements are tightening.

UAE has a big problem with paper residence, where people get visas there and but don't actually live there. Banks have known this for years. Regulators have finally caught up.

Your Swiss private bank probably doesn't actually care, but regulators care. Regulators put pressure on banks to de-risk, meaning to impose stricter checks on funds for transactions involving high risk jurisdictions (such as UAE). This is why the amount of documents required just to maintain a basic banking relationship keeps increasing year after year.

Second question about Bahrain and COR. Do you actually think COR and it's 183 days defines tax residency in Bahrain? Don't you think that it is actually NOT DEFINED in Bahrain at current point. So, someone who spends, for instance, 100 days a year there, can declare that he is tax resident of Bahrain (because he holds gold visa and did not spend more than 100 days in any other country), but he can not provide COR to prove that because the country does not give it.

All that can be used in court vs bank if bank puts limits on funds without any other reason.

Quick link for reference -

https://www.oecd.org/tax/automatic-exchange/crs-implementation-and-assistance/tax-residency/Bahrain-Residency.pdf

 

[Sols]

Do you know where exactly is any official info on that potential pressure from regulators? Like what/how they will request that? I have found something vague and weak only here -

You just kind of have to be active and aware in the industry, I suppose. There isn't a single web page where it's all listed. It's a combination of things from changes in legislations, directives (EU), and a plethora of recommendations, warnings, guidance notes from regulators (central banks, FSAs) and international organizations like FATF and OECD.

Second question about Bahrain and COR. Do you actually think COR and it's 183 days defines tax residency in Bahrain? Don't you think that it is actually NOT DEFINED in Bahrain at current point. So, someone who spends, for instance, 100 days a year there, can declare that he is tax resident of Bahrain (because he holds gold visa and did not spend more than 100 days in any other country), but he can not provide COR to prove that because the country does not give it.

Tax residence for individuals isn't defined in Bahrain law. But in order to get a COR, you have to demonstrate 183 days of presence in the country.

Think of it not like a proof that you're tax resident in Bahrain (since there is no such thing under local law), but rather as a proof that you probably aren't tax resident anywhere else, except for places that define tax residence more broadly than just 183 days of residence per year.

 

[hortm]

You just kind of have to be active and aware in the industry, I suppose. There isn't a single web page where it's all listed. It's a combination of things from changes in legislations, directives (EU), and a plethora of recommendations, warnings, guidance notes from regulators (central banks, FSAs) and international organizations like FATF and OECD.


Tax residence for individuals isn't defined in Bahrain law. But in order to get a COR, you have to demonstrate 183 days of presence in the country.

Think of it not like a proof that you're tax resident in Bahrain (since there is no such thing under local law), but rather as a proof that you probably aren't tax resident anywhere else, except for places that define tax residence more broadly than just 183 days of residence per year.

But isn't it bank's task to prove in court I am not genuine resident in Bahrain (in case they decided to put limits)? While for CRS I have provided Bahraini residence visa / ID card / Utility bills, don't you think a that point I shall have effective position to oppose bank in court and unfreeze and, later, close the account?

In most case you would never need TRC. But if you get investigated by home country they will definetely ask for tax TRC. They will also write request to UAE and ask if you really lived in the country.
This happened to me. They asked for TRC and wrote letters. In case you cannot provide TRC this can be problematic. This would be just additional argument to them that you are not genuine resident in UAE..

I don't say TRC is magical free pass paper. But if you cannot produce at least TRC, good luck proving your new tax residence in court As many these paper you have, the better your chance is to be on safe side

Did UAE provided info asked in those letters?