Safe place for 50k because of debts

[Martin Everson]

Hello, I am still trying to understand the risks of using a safety deposit box in Germany or UK. I asked a German company offering deposit boxes outside the banking sector about their confendiality and they replied:
"To open a safe box we will need your passport in advance to write the contract..
The renting is minimum 1 year, nobody will know it that you have rented a safe by us. You will get an invoice and you can pay in cash. We need no bank account and we have not to inform any institution."
Their price is 135 euro per year while in Switzerland is around 500.
The UK is also outside the EU but they need proof of address and payment to be done by my own debit or credit card.
The only issue with Switzerland is the very high price and costs to travel to there.

Don't touch Germany (EU) or UK (ex-EU). UK incorporated most EU law into UK national law before leaving EU so a lot of past EU laws still apply. With no proof of address options are limited I can see even in some developing countries. So maybe ask around wherever you are residing and try and get some sort of proof of address i.e rental contract etc.

You have a clear source of funds for the cash as you mentioned. So if in end cash is only solution it should not be an issue to maybe leave some with family members for example.

However do not go near crypto stablecoins if you don't understand them. USDT especially where addresses can and have been blacklisted by Tether at request of law enforcement.

 

[JackAlabama]

Don't touch Germany (EU) or UK (ex-EU). UK incorporated most EU law into UK national law before leaving EU so a lot of past EU laws still apply. With no proof of address options are limited I can see even in some developing countries. So maybe ask around wherever you are residing and try and get some sort of proof of address i.e rental contract etc.

You have a clear source of funds for the cash as you mentioned. So if in end cash is only solution it should not be an issue to maybe leave some with family members for example.

However do not go near crypto stablecoins if you don't understand them. USDT especially where addresses can and have been blacklisted by Tether at request of law enforcement.

Since OP has a crystal clear source of funds, blacklisting of his Tether address is one of his very very last concerns regarding stablecoins especially compared to the alternative of renting boxes, putting cash in it while having no proof of address and being in the need of getting one.

 

[Amsterdam123]

Most of safety deposit box companies in the UK require proof of address like utility bill or bank statement. I have a Dutch bank account by Bunq and the statements can be downloaded and printed and my name and address are on top of each bank statement. That is my proof of address.

 

[Martin Everson]

Most of safety deposit box companies in the UK require proof of address like utility bill or bank statement. I have a Dutch bank account by Bunq and the statements can be downloaded and printed and my name and address are on top of each bank statement. That is my proof of address.

Then that is fine. Bank statements is what I have always used for proof of address and it works fine.

Since OP has a crystal clear source of funds, blacklisting of his Tether address is one of his very very last concerns regarding stablecoins especially compared to the alternative of renting boxes, putting cash in it while having no proof of address and being in the need of getting one.

I don't know details of OP's situation with his debts in Netherlands. If there is courts involved etc then law enforcement can ask Tether to seize/freeze your USDT. They would however need to be aware you bought Tether and know your wallet address to request this to be done.

Can any USDT holder be blacklisted on Tether? - Crypto News

Tether CTO Paolo Ardoino spoke about the positive features of the blacklist mechanism. The company enters wallet addresses into it to block the balance of

bt-crow.com

---- quote start

A number of addresses are permanently blocked at the request of law enforcement agencies, in which case Tether can transfer the equivalent in fiat dollars to the account of the Ministry of Justice, if there is a court decision to confiscate the deposit.

This week, wallets with a deposit of $160 million were blacklisted. Tether claims that they are “frozen” at the request of law enforcement agencies, but the blocking procedure is opaque and the crypto community has to take the word of the company, which has repeatedly been convicted of hiding important information.

---- quote end

When Tether can just freeze your holdings it is unsuitable for use as a safe place. I discussed this already in another thread.

 

[JackAlabama]

Then that is fine. Bank statements is what I have always used for proof of address and it works fine.



I don't know details of OP's situation with his debts in Netherlands. If there is courts involved etc then law enforcement can ask Tether to seize/freeze your USDT. They would however need to be aware you bought Tether and know your wallet address to request this to be done.

Can any USDT holder be blacklisted on Tether? - Crypto News

Tether CTO Paolo Ardoino spoke about the positive features of the blacklist mechanism. The company enters wallet addresses into it to block the balance of

bt-crow.com

---- quote start

A number of addresses are permanently blocked at the request of law enforcement agencies, in which case Tether can transfer the equivalent in fiat dollars to the account of the Ministry of Justice, if there is a court decision to confiscate the deposit.

This week, wallets with a deposit of $160 million were blacklisted. Tether claims that they are “frozen” at the request of law enforcement agencies, but the blocking procedure is opaque and the crypto community has to take the word of the company, which has repeatedly been convicted of hiding important information.

---- quote end

When Tether can just freeze your holdings it is unsuitable for use as a safe place. I discussed this already in another thread.

Im not a big fan of these blackbox stablecoins which actually are called fiatcoins (as there is nothing stable with them).

The only safe crypto from that point of view is Bitcoin.

 

[lostguy]

The only safe crypto from that point of view is Bitcoin.

they go up and down, stablecoins don't do that.

Beside that, OP after you have been reading the replies you got here, what's your preferred solution by now?

 

[JackAlabama]

they go up and down, stablecoins don't do that.

Beside that, OP after you have been reading the replies you got here, what's your preferred solution by now?

notable exceptions to this rule witnessed just recently. They then stay down forever.

 

[NicolasMaduro]

Did creditor already take you to court and declare you bankrupt?

 

[Amsterdam123]

they go up and down, stablecoins don't do that.

Beside that, OP after you have been reading the replies you got here, what's your preferred solution by now?

I have no experience with cryptocurrency or stablecoins and I don't feel like doing something that I am not familiar with. So I am looking more at the other options.
1, open bank account at online bank outside EU - Monese, Revolut or Wise (UK) or Dukascopy (Switzerland). My worry is that they share my account details according to CRS and thus the Dutch tax office will know about my account. I have no problem with taxes since I don't own any, but my debt is to a government institution and institutions in Netherlands share information with each other so if tax office gets to know my foreign bank account, then other government agencies may know it too.

That's way I am considering going to Serbia to open there, in a non CSR country, already spoke to Mobi Bank there and they require 90 days residents permit so I will try another bank there.

The other option I am considering is to say to the UK or Swiss online bank where I will open account with tax resident in country different than Netherlands. I have a Bulgarian tax number because I sold a house there and since I don't have a permanent address, I could also register me address of my friends there. In that case the UK or Swiss bank will share my account details with the Bulgarian tax office and not the Dutch one, which sounds good.

Finally, I love cash and I have traveled around the world carrying cash with me. Since I travel in developing, I pay cash for everything such as food, accommodation and transport, except airplane tickets and health insurance. The thing is that I can't travel with more than 10 000 euro cash. So I still need to put the rest somewhere. I may rent a safety deposit box in UK, Switzerland ok Germany outside the banking sector. I have contacted more than 10 companies offering boxes and wait to get reply from everyone. I don't dare to put in a Dutch deposit box since they seem to not care about privacy (payment by own bank account only and proof of address). I really don't know if it makes any difference if it's in EU or not. I can not imagine that private safety deposit box companies in Germany will provide the German government with a full list of all owners of boxes and that they will than give this information to Dutch authorities. I also want to ask if anyone can advice me on how can I bring 40 000 cash into Switzerland? According to Swiss customs, I can carry unlimited cash into Switzerland but I am allowed to enter and exit Germany with no more than 10 000 cash. So is there any way to bring 40 000 into Switzerland without having to go there 4 times ? I checked money gram and western union to pick up cash in Switzerland but they allow to transfer just 3000 euro and at very high costs.

I am also looking at parking some cash at Skrill, Neteller, Paypal, ViaBuy and getting a prepaid card with them. Does someone know if they are safer options than Monese/Revolut/Dukascopy/Wise and if they share any information since they are no banks and don't offer IBAN number (except ViaBuy).

 

[lostguy]

Toi bring the cash into Switzerland should not be a problem, there are no control on the borders you cross before you enter Switzerland, so what should stop you taking the 40K in cash with you?

If you are worried, stable coins will again be the 110% secure thing, convert your 40K cash into stable coin, get them out in cash when you are in Swiss, NO ONE will ever know about it.

Finally, will you stay in the Netherlands or are you on the road all the time?

 

[Amsterdam123]

I am on the road all the time and don't stay in the Netherlands.
I was just afraid that German customs make random checks on the border as this is what I red on their website. I know that they make random checks on the German - Dutch border, they have stopped my bus (Flixbus) regularly and checked ID documents and occasionally also luggage.

 

[lostguy]

You don't want to take a BUS crossing the boarder!

But as I said, a Ledger stick would solve your worries and you could put a big smile in the customs face should they stop you!

 

[Golden Fleece]

My worry is that they share my account details according to CRS and thus the Dutch tax office will know about my account. I have no problem with taxes since I don't own any, but my debt is to a government institution and institutions in Netherlands share information with each other so if tax office gets to know my foreign bank account, then other government agencies may know it too.

You should have mentioned that fact in your first post. That changes almost everything. Hiding cash from a government is completely different from hiding cash from a private creditor or ex-spouse.

I also want to ask if anyone can advice me on how can I bring 40 000 cash into Switzerland? According to Swiss customs, I can carry unlimited cash into Switzerland but I am allowed to enter and exit Germany with no more than 10 000 cash. So is there any way to bring 40 000 into Switzerland without having to go there 4 times?

Unless something recently changed, I doubt that Germany has a $10k limit on cash. That would be Third Reich style capital controls. Just like any other country, you just need to declare it.

Any person entering Germany from a country which is not a member state of the European Union (EU) or leaving Germany for a non-member state and who is carrying cash or an equivalent means of payment with a total value of 10,000 or more euros is obliged to declare this amount unsolicited and in writing to the competent German customs authorities.

Obligation to declare cash when travelling to or from Germany

Cash sums totalling 10,000 or more euros on trips to and from Germany must be declared to the customs authorities. This applies to both cash and equivalent means of payment.

www.auswaertiges-amt.de

 

[lostguy]

That would be Third Reich style capital controls.

 

[Martin Everson]

So I still need to put the rest somewhere. I may rent a safety deposit box in UK, Switzerland ok Germany outside the banking sector. I have contacted more than 10 companies offering boxes and wait to get reply from everyone. I don't dare to put in a Dutch deposit box since they seem to not care about privacy (payment by own bank account only and proof of address). I really don't know if it makes any difference if it's in EU or not.

It does make a difference if box is in EU. Under the EU 5th Money Laundering Directive, that became law on 10 Jan 2020, safety deposit boxes have to be part of a national register that can be shareble with other EU member states .

Update: EU 5th Anti-Money Laundering Directive - 10 Jan 2020

https://www.finextra.com/blogposting/17760/time-to-prepare-for-the-fifth-anti-money-laundering-directive ----quote Hot on the heels of the Fourth Anti-Money Laundering Directive (4AMLD), the fifth version (5AMLD) is set to become law throughout the EU on 10 January 2020. With a focus on...

www.offshorecorptalk.com

 

[lacomaco]

Guys, are you seriouly recommending Tether which has presumably around 65 BILLION USD under ownership and so far it was unable to produce a proper audited financial statement? With what has happened with Terra and Luna you really have no doubt that this religious attachment to stablecoins might be wrong?

 

[JimBeam]

1. Diversify (have some in cash, some in a couple bank accounts, Serbia might not be such a bad idea to keep 20-30% of money there if you can get an account as a foreigner).
2. If you have a home or a family home (parent's home), buy a safe deposit box and keep 10-20k there - it's always handy to have some cash. (or even all of it)
3. Stay away from crypto and "stable coins" as these may not be stable as it seems... and especially if you're crypto noob...
4. Avoid anything Swiss as most probably it will be very expensive and not worth storing 50k there in most of scenarios...
5. Never carry more than 10k in cash with you to avoid having problems with customs. If you travel with friends or family members - you can give them some cash to take it across the border as it's theirs.

 

[Amsterdam123]

1. Diversify (have some in cash, some in a couple bank accounts, Serbia might not be such a bad idea to keep 20-30% of money there if you can get an account as a foreigner).
2. If you have a home or a family home (parent's home), buy a safe deposit box and keep 10-20k there - it's always handy to have some cash. (or even all of it)
3. Stay away from crypto and "stable coins" as these may not be stable as it seems... and especially if you're crypto noob...
4. Avoid anything Swiss as most probably it will be very expensive and not worth storing 50k there in most of scenarios...
5. Never carry more than 10k in cash with you to avoid having problems with customs. If you travel with friends or family members - you can give them some cash to take it across the border as it's theirs.

These are good advices, I have been thinking on these recently.
1. To diversify, by splitting the money on 7 places or roughly 7k per place, cash in me, Wise, Skrill, Serbian bank, cash in close relative house/bank account etc ..

2. I do have money in a friend's house and in family's bank account. It is possible to keep all my money that way. The problem is that I can't trust 100% the family of friends where my money is at the moment, I must worry all the time if something will disssapear or not.

3. I am staying away from crypto or stablecoins, would never even consider that.

4. About Switzerland, I have been thinking about renting a safety deposit box in a private company. It's really expensive at 430 euro per year and I would prepay for 5 years 2150 euro. I thought that this is the safest option as I don't think that privately owned Swiss deposit boxes such Safes Fidelity Geneva, Degussa in Geneva or Zurich, Swiss Gold Safe, Finanz Konzept or Sincona. It seems to me the safest option as chances of reporting to any authorities or a roberry seem very low. It's much cheaper to rent a private deposit box in the UK or Germany but confendiality could be compromised.
If I rent a box in Switzerland, I consider putting everything there since it's too expensive to pay 430 a year plus high transport costs to travel to there just to keep 6-7k, so no diversifying in this case.

5. I have never crossed a border with more than 10 000,, even not the open borders withing the EU.

So I am considering just 2 options- split into 6-7 places cash, bank account, EMI, maybe a cheap deposit box.
Or put everything in pricey Swiss deposit box.

 

[backpacker]

So I am considering just 2 options- split into 6-7 places cash, bank account, EMI, maybe a cheap deposit box.
Or put everything in pricey Swiss deposit box.

If you calculate the cost and time for splitting everything up it is probably better to put all in one place. No offence, but the amount you are talking about (50k) is too small for diversification of storage.

Should that single storage place be a pricey Swiss deposit box? No, not worth it for your purpose (advise from a Swiss ).
Also note that KYC exists with private Swiss deposit boxes. If they smell something fishy they will report you.

The amount in question is best kept in cash (or gold) with a trusted friend. Buy a travel-safe, put it in, give the travel-safe to the trusted friend to store it away from his family.

 

[JimBeam]

If you calculate the cost and time for splitting everything up it is probably better to put all in one place. No offence, but the amount you are talking about (50k) is too small for diversification of storage.

Should that single storage place be a pricey Swiss deposit box? No, not worth it for your purpose (advise from a Swiss ).

Exactly, not worth it as Swiss is quite expensive. You need to calculate flights and other costs as well.
Also if you need some money quick - you'll need at least a day to take a flight to swiss and back...

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Also you could rent one of these self storage boxes, put a bunch of junk there and one safe deposit box with cash in it.
I guess this is way cheaper than safe deposit box in bank, it's not reported and nobody will suspect you hold cash there (security by obsecurity).

If you're afraid of fire - there are fire proof safes.

Will Paper Money Burn Inside Of A Safe? - Best Built Safes

Safes are a great way to protect your valuables, but will paper money burn inside a safe? Make sure you have the right safe today!

www.bestbuiltsafes.com

And you might also buy and keep gold bars inside (if you think that's a asset that you would hold instead of cash)