Thailand Tax -> CC/DC Withdrawals (CDM/ATM)

[wellington]

Though I think bangkok is cheap compared to phuket - or it was - costs 60b a coconut now

That’s my barometer lol

Pattaya was very cheap the one and only time I went but wasn’t my style.

2450THB for 54.48l of diesel this morning

Almost ran out heading back from the local builders merchants - part of our tax deductions effort is putting in growing gardens lol

- When i moved on from the idea of spending time elsewhere due to the new tax changes (or rather loophole closure) after speaking to the Revenue Department, i started looking at where we could cut our costs, surprisingly the the household would spend 400b a day on average at the local market for vegetables/fish, worked out roughly 140,000 THB a year or 4/5,000$.

Tax on that alone would add onto funds so we opted to instead start turning some of the jungle around the home into vegetable gardens - every little helps, probably saved 30,000THB already, also means no tax for the blood suckers from remitting to buy that % of groceries.

 

[toums]

@scooterguy @Frank in Bangkok

Honestly for main base in Thailand (as single, 30s, and alway like 'busy' big city' and easy to fly), i like only BKK for that. I hate Pattaya, CM too boring and no sea to compensate, Krabi too much tourist and too much muslim vibes (what i am not looking for), I was plenty of time in Phuket don't really like either, except next to Bang tao, but i think it's better for family, not as single.. You have other small island, but for living it's another topic.

Probably you didn't read my main topic, and maybe you will understand why I am asking all these questions :

10M.+ optimization tax residency when you have 3/4 bases.

Let’s say : You are in your late 30s Single / no kids (not planning to have kids from medium to long term) EU citizen Expatriate since 10years+ You have 10M.+ in liquidity / easily liquid (big part from crypto) and few real estate. Almost 100% of your income came from passive (interests...

www.offshorecorptalk.com

My plan is to live in Thailand (and also around in SEA/Bali for some small trips) for 6-8 months a year, and spending the 4 others in Europe during summer time (not in my citizenship country : France, maybe just 1 month a year as i do since one decade).
I have currently 2 base in Europe (portugal where i have the NHR tax scheme) and in Budapest.
By doing this move, i will remove Portugal (and NHR tax residency), and just keep Budapest as I own some real estate there.

I really like Thailand, that's why I was looking for 'official' tax residency somewhere so to spend at least 180days+ a year..
if too problematic for the new rules, i can also stay just below 180days in Thailand, doing on the side the Emirates ID with
freelance/company or 1 real estate investment 200Kusd (7.5millions) in dubai.. But at the end you don't have anywhere a real tax residency..

I can live 6months+ a year in thailand, but 3-6months in UAE, I really don't want for now.

ATM will flag up - you’ll notice your card will be rejected for too many withdrawals - that’s a prompt behind the scenes to the AMOL office and they can tie the card to you.


- I did the elite and they’ve changed it so much - was meant to be tax free, no reporting, no paperwork each has been eroded or walked back or changed.

I’ve done investor visa in Thailand previously - it’s not worth the paperwork.

- That's the point, I never talked about ATM/withdraw, ONLY about bank card payment. As you can pay directly almost 95%+ in credit/debit card (at least in BKK), you almost never need cash there to pay your daily expenses. My question was regarding bank card payment, not ATM/CTM.

- Yes I read lot of your posts and I saw you bought the Elite but you plan to not renew it. But what to do if : NO visa run / visa ED you can be flag and maybe not upgrade to a "better" visa after that / you said investor not worth the paperwork.. / And Elite become irrelevant / and no thai wife (and no planning to get married soon anyway. Then how to live in Thailand ?

 

[scooterguy]

This is true - if spending about 30k a month your liabilities would be minuscule - just calculate and pay the requirements in that case.

Minuscule and even non-existent if money remitted comes from capital gains abroad.

For example, if you bought a security for 900k baht in 2023, now you sell it for 1M baht, capital gains is 100k and so that 1M from abroad can enter Thailand tax-free.

When remitting only 300k a year, it means you can remit a portion of capital gains that has even doubled in value and you will still be not liable for tax.

But now, back to something discussed a few weeks ago: what if you always make your income abroad go through the purchase of securities so that it can be remitted later as capital gains, with less tax due? For example, make it go through something like JEPI so you get additional foreign income and capital gains income close to 0 when selling before remitting to Thailand?

I don't think Thailand has rules in place yet to deal with those scenarios, nor any way to realistically enforce them.

 

[wellington]

Krabi too much tourist

Was dead when i lived there for 6 months over a decade ago, ended up fleeing lol

Bang tao

Bang Tao too much traffic, i go to the wine drinking Fridays, utter nightmare, from there down to Mai Khao, and then Paklok is more relaxed but within reach of life, anything South of Kamala is a no-go-zone... s**t-hole all along the west coast with a few small pockets but you've got to travel through the s**t-holes to get to them.

Phuket town amazing, was there night before last having Japanese prepared by the chef 1-1 these are the experiences that make Phuket town great, in Bangkok you rarely get that.

Thailand (and also around in SEA/Bali for some small trips) for 6-8 months a year,

Bali is a great escape, would love to get a home there, we used to (pre-covid) travel a couple of times a year to relax.

- That's the point, I never talked about ATM/withdraw, ONLY about bank card payment. As you can pay directly almost 95%+ in credit/debit card (at least in BKK), you almost never need cash there to pay your daily expenses. My question was regarding bank card payment, not ATM/CTM.

Bank Cards will (i.e card payment) will still ledger, I don't believe this post is in the mentor group, otherwise i'd drop some little nugget...

- Yes I read lot of your posts and I saw you bought the Elite but you plan to not renew it. But what to do if : NO visa run / visa ED you can be flag and maybe not upgrade to a "better" visa after that / you said investor not worth the paperwork.. / And Elite become irrelevant / and no thai wife (and no planning to get married soon anyway. Then how to live in Thailand ?

I first moved to Thailand and was part of a 100m$ villa development so was provided with a WP, ended up remaining after going to Swiss to detox for a year, and moved over to a investor visa, during covid the Company (research centre) in Thailand was closed as the rules/etc were non-tenerable, i was in Afrika at the time of covid breaking out, and was meant to renew the visa but with covid ended up flying into Thailand and on a replacement passport, as didn't have time to transfer etc, and did an exempt, then with the hassle decided to move onto Elite.

At first the offering looked ideal, i didn't want to deal with immigration, unfortunately they keep walking back policies so actually family visa's etc are pretty much the same minus the up-front haircut, i haven't decided what to do next (yet).

For yourself, there's an abundance of visa's or just get a tourist visa... and bounce around between bali/thailand...

 

[Mercury]

I really like Thailand, that's why I was looking for 'official' tax residency somewhere so to spend at least 180days+ a year..
if too problematic for the new rules, i can also stay just below 180days in Thailand, doing on the side the Emirates ID with
freelance/company or 1 real estate investment 200Kusd (7.5millions) in dubai.. But at the end you don't have anywhere a real tax residency..

I can live 6months+ a year in thailand, but 3-6months in UAE, I really don't want for now.

If I were you (late 30s, 10+M net liquid net worth willing to settle and get residence in Thailand), I would simply go through the LTR visa Wealthy Global Citizen route and get the tax exemption benefit on all your overseas remittance + all other privileges.

Regarding requirements, can easily show USD 1M in assets and USD 80K / year income.
The USD 500K investment would be a very well located well-maintained 2/3BR condo in BKK as home or pied-à-terre.

LTR Visa Thailand - Long Term Resident Program

Long Term Resident Visa Thailand (LTR VISA)

ltr.boi.go.th

 

[scooterguy]

If I were you (late 30s, 10+M net liquid net worth willing to settle and get residence in Thailand), I would simply go through the LTR visa Wealthy Global Citizen route and get the tax exemption benefit on all your overseas remittance + all other privileges.

Regarding requirements, can easily show USD 1M in assets and USD 80K / year income.
The USD 500K investment would be a very well located well-maintained 2/3BR condo in BKK as home or pied-à-terre.

LTR Visa Thailand - Long Term Resident Program

Long Term Resident Visa Thailand (LTR VISA)

ltr.boi.go.th

Investment requirements are similar to getting residence in Monaco or San Marino, I guess that's part of the joke that is this LTR visa?

 

[Mercury]

Investment requirements are similar to getting residence in Monaco or San Marino, I guess that's part of the joke that is this LTR visa?

Investment requirement is US 500K combined in either Thai government bonds OR direct investment in companies registered in Thailand OR Thai property.

As I said if you do properly your homework buying a well chosen spacious condo unit in Bangkok, you won't lose money. It's a home you stay while in Thailand, not looking for yield.

In older buildings (bigger condo, better construction/location), you can get units for less than THB 100K/sqm (USD 2,750/sqm) that once renovated will accrue in value. Investing USD 500K could get you a 150+ sqm revamped condo in the heart of Bangkok.

What do you get for US 500K in Monaco/San Marino and how much will be your yearly costs of living/maintenance?

 

[scooterguy]

Investment requirement is US 500K combined in either Thai government bonds OR direct investment in companies registered in Thailand OR Thai property.

As I said if you do properly your homework buying a well chosen spacious condo unit in Bangkok, you won't lose money. It's a home you stay while in Thailand, not looking for yield.

In older buildings (bigger condo, better construction/location), you can get units for less than THB 100K/sqm (USD 2,750/sqm) that once renovated will accrue in value. Investing USD 500K could get you a 150+ sqm revamped condo in the heart of Bangkok.

What do you get for US 500K in Monaco/San Marino and how much will be your yearly costs of living/maintenance?

I agree that you will get a much better property in Thailand for those amounts, but you can spend even less than that; this visa forces you to spend a minimum of 500k in a low cost country and it doesn't really give you too many benefits, especially if you live off foreign investments. Other LTR visa types like the 'work-from-Thailand professionals' are good deals, but how is this 'wealthy global citizens' thing any good?

How is it better than the standard investment visa that only requires a 300k investment and less headaches? How are these two even better than going the Thai Elite + tax id route for a fraction of those prices and even less headaches?

If you live off investments, you set up yourself to lose money by tying 500k to Thailand that could be somewhere else. Thai Elite + tax id does the trick for $4k/year, and you can buy or rent whatever you want in Thailand.

 

[Mercury]

Other LTR visa types like the 'work-from-Thailand professionals' are good deals, but how is this 'wealthy global citizens' thing any good?

Yes if you meet the requirements (employment contract, working experience,...).

How is it better than the standard investment visa that only requires a 300k investment and less headaches? How are these two even better than going the Thai Elite + tax id route for a fraction of those prices and even less headaches?

Overseas income tax exemption is a huge benefit you won't get with Investor/Elite or any other type of visa.

If you live off investments, you set up yourself to lose money by tying 500k to Thailand that could be somewhere else. Thai Elite + tax id does the trick for $4k/year, and you can buy or rent whatever you want in Thailand.

Again, for THB 50K LTR visa grants 10 years residence permission in Thailand (multiple re-entry permit, no 90-day reports, ...) along with legal tax exemption. It gives peace of mind for those who can afford and do not want to play the low profile/no enforcement game.

Locking up 500K is not a big deal if you can make the rest of your 9.5M (as OP) working at good yield.

 

[Marketint]

I agree that you will get a much better property in Thailand for those amounts, but you can spend even less than that; this visa forces you to spend a minimum of 500k in a low cost country and it doesn't really give you too many benefits, especially if you live off foreign investments. Other LTR visa types like the 'work-from-Thailand professionals' are good deals, but how is this 'wealthy global citizens' thing any good?

How is it better than the standard investment visa that only requires a 300k investment and less headaches? How are these two even better than going the Thai Elite + tax id route for a fraction of those prices and even less headaches?

If you live off investments, you set up yourself to lose money by tying 500k to Thailand that could be somewhere else. Thai Elite + tax id does the trick for $4k/year, and you can buy or rent whatever you want in Thailand.

If you're want to have the option to sell your unit quickly when needed , Bangkok is, in my opinion, the best choice.

However, if you're buying to live in it, there are better options available. I don't understand why people purchase properties in overpriced projects like Copacabana in Pattaya https://www.thailand-property.com/a...chonburi_7a475e3490dc-a9d1-7e95-ce3d-9670f2c2 While I agree that it looks beautiful and having a pool on your balcony is impressive, when you compare it with other options.

https://www.hipflat.com/ads/8luu4c18121ac0uh11891a82hac44lun

https://www.hipflat.com/ads/ta29t23an278h27t378u8th887c7alee

If you look carefully, you can find penthouses for $500/sqm. Just spend some money on renovations.
Nearby hotels like Marriott offer great dining experiences. There are great beaches. Golf courses and islands accessible by ferry within 30 minutes are added benefits. However, it all depends on your lifestyle.

I mean as you say it’s a home to stay while your are in Thailand it’s a good option. Beside that you can rent out on Airbnb. Official it’s only allowed for 30+ plus days but in this area even the house manager assisting people with check in ect.

What I recommend when you buying a condo is request All minutes of meetings of the last 5-10years hold by the owners. In some condos there are a lot of problem between residents. Try to avoid such places.

 

[scooterguy]

Overseas income tax exemption is a huge benefit you won't get with Investor/Elite or any other type of visa.

This makes little sense for investment income abroad. Tax is only paid when money is remitted, and as an investor you can choose where the money comes from. It can come from small capital gains, from losses, from dividends from countries with which Thailand has a tax treaty, or you can remit a big chunk of money during a year in which you only spend 5 months in Thailand.

So, the tax exemption is useless with this visa because with minimal planning you're already pretty much legally tax exempt.

Again, for THB 50K LTR visa grants 10 years residence permission in Thailand (multiple re-entry permit, no 90-day reports, ...) along with legal tax exemption. It gives peace of mind for those who can afford and do not want to play the low profile/no enforcement game.

It's not about low profile/no enforcement game. No tax on foreign income is how it is in Thailand already, legally.

Spending $500k plus property taxes, commissions, etc. to avoid 90-day reports doesn't sound like a great deal to be honest, and on top of that the 50K baht application fee; I had forgotten about that.

It's a terrible deal for investors.

 

[JohnLocke]

Spending $500k plus property taxes, commissions, etc. to avoid 90-day reports doesn't sound like a great deal to be honest, and on top of that the 50K baht application fee; I had forgotten about that.

It's a terrible deal for investors.

Sorry but why is that a terrible deal for an investor seeking tax freedom. The $500k you have to spend on what exactly ?

 

[Mercury]

So, the tax exemption is useless with this visa because with minimal planning you're already pretty much legally tax exempt.

If I had 10+M liquid, I will always choose the option that drastically mitigates planning headaches and admin burden. The more money you have the more you should be able to free yourself from rules and controls. But, that's just me.

 

[JackAlabama]

This makes little sense for investment income abroad. Tax is only paid when money is remitted, and as an investor you can choose where the money comes from. It can come from small capital gains, from losses, from dividends from countries with which Thailand has a tax treaty, or you can remit a big chunk of money during a year in which you only spend 5 months in Thailand.

So, the tax exemption is useless with this visa because with minimal planning you're already pretty much legally tax exempt.




It's not about low profile/no enforcement game. No tax on foreign income is how it is in Thailand already, legally.

Spending $500k plus property taxes, commissions, etc. to avoid 90-day reports doesn't sound like a great deal to be honest, and on top of that the 50K baht application fee; I had forgotten about that.

It's a terrible deal for investors.

indeed. Besides the huge opportunity cost id incour, id never want to oversee 500k in a land where as foreigner I have exactly 0 rights. And 500k (which is around 20M baht) puts one around the 1% club compared to the local standards, so a lot of eyes on ones back.

Its all nice for vacay and stuff etc etc but id be completely out of doing anything seriously investment wise. Maybe some small allo to local stocks or whatever these -R derivatives reserved to foreigners are being called. At least these can be unloaded in a day without having to deal with anyone plus its tax exempt and dividends flat taxed and auto-deducted (no form filing needed).

But isnt it hilarious how that change of Tax policy seems to backfire?
@wellington s examples alone his reduction in spend and thus loss of VAT income wont be offset by a 1000 foreign retirees paying income tax on a meager pension.
How many more will just stay 5months and spend the rest in Malaysia or another country close by?
(and hence not pay expensive VAT to thai gov in the remaining 7 months).
200k baht spend @ 7% VAT already equals the average salary of the average thai for example.

Also the effect on the banks which now will for sure have way less balances or remittances is gonna be interesting to watch.

So Id say the thai rev department will be in for a pretty interesting surprise and tax related income be down even tho they are gonna tax a few 100ks of foreigners and rich thais.

 

[scooterguy]

Sorry but why is that a terrible deal for an investor seeking tax freedom. The $500k you have to spend on what exactly ?

Because tax freedom in Thailand doesn't require spending half a million dollars. You can get the same result with cheap $1k/year visas, or, if you want to get fancy, a Thai Elite visa at $40k for 10 years.

There is also a $300k investor visa that has no time limit and can be renewed annually forever (decades ago it was a $100k investment, and people from those old visas were grandfathered in and still renew it showing their $100k investment).

In other words, the LTR visa by investment is the worst deal of all of them, by far.

If I had 10+M liquid, I will always choose the option that drastically mitigates planning headaches and admin burden. The more money you have the more you should be able to free yourself from rules and controls. But, that's just me.

Thai Elite is the easiest of all. The 90-day reports literally take 1 minute nowadays. You can also do them online, or have an agent do them for you.

Buying and managing your own $500k property is not necessarily a stress-free experience. Also, remember that remitting the $500k to buy it would also trigger a tax event if you don't plan accordingly... So you won't be free of planning, even if you decide to overpay.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

What I recommend when you buying a condo is request All minutes of meetings of the last 5-10years hold by the owners. In some condos there are a lot of problem between residents. Try to avoid such places.

Brilliant!

@Marketint understands condo life 100% !

 

[JackAlabama]

Because tax freedom in Thailand doesn't require spending half a million dollars. You can get the same result with cheap $1k/year visas, or, if you want to get fancy, a Thai Elite visa at $40k for 10 years.

There is also a $300k investor visa that has no time limit and can be renewed annually forever (decades ago it was a $100k investment, and people from those old visas were grandfathered in and still renew it showing their $100k investment).

In other words, the LTR visa by investment is the worst deal of all of them, by far.



Thai Elite is the easiest of all. The 90-day reports literally take 1 minute nowadays. You can also do them online, or have an agent do them for you.

Buying and managing your own $500k property is not necessarily a stress-free experience. Also, remember that remitting the $500k to buy it would also trigger a tax event if you don't plan accordingly... So you won't be free of planning, even if you decide to overpay.

good take. If one travels only sparsely, a 90day report wont ever be needed.

 

[wellington]

indeed. Besides the huge opportunity cost id incour, id never want to oversee 500k in a land where as foreigner I have exactly 0 rights. And 500k (which is around 20M baht) puts one around the 1% club compared to the local standards, so a lot of eyes on ones back.

Its all nice for vacay and stuff etc etc but id be completely out of doing anything seriously investment wise. Maybe some small allo to local stocks or whatever these -R derivatives reserved to foreigners are being called. At least these can be unloaded in a day without having to deal with anyone plus its tax exempt and dividends flat taxed and auto-deducted (no form filing needed).

But isnt it hilarious how that change of Tax policy seems to backfire?
@wellington s examples alone his reduction in spend and thus loss of VAT income wont be offset by a 1000 foreign retirees paying income tax on a meager pension.
How many more will just stay 5months and spend the rest in Malaysia or another country close by?
(and hence not pay expensive VAT to thai gov in the remaining 7 months).
200k baht spend @ 7% VAT already equals the average salary of the average thai for example.

Also the effect on the banks which now will for sure have way less balances or remittances is gonna be interesting to watch.

So Id say the thai rev department will be in for a pretty interesting surprise and tax related income be down even tho they are gonna tax a few 100ks of foreigners and rich thais.

They are absolutely clueless in not the only one - my entire circle addressed their onshore costs.

Everything insurance related paid overseas to an overseas provider (believe it or not this is one of the biggest costs when you have a family).

Everything onshore was addressed on how it could be reduced or negotiated opposed to just paying previously - no prior haggling.

In addition even grocery shopping (central etc) we’ve found a way to reduce there onshore exposure with the same shopping without going the route some people suggested of using a overseas card (that’s for the mentor group though).

Then onshore things like schooling we’ve gone with their parent companies and placements opposed to domestic placements as most of these schools etc are owned by a overseas company and have placements for kids - now that will change in the future as the kids will either study in Swiss/singapore or HK but for the time being this year at least we’ve adopted this approach.

I’d hazard a guess we’ve reduced our onshore exposure by 60% of costs and friends by 70%+ but most don’t have kids.

We have staff (household etc) and those were normally paid by the wife after paying tax now they are paid via a service entity and have to pay their own tax.

Ultimately there will be a significant impact on the local economy for those that have structured planned so another idiotic idea by the Thai government failing to fulfill their ideas.

 

[Frank in Bangkok]

id never want to oversee 500k in a land where as foreigner I have exactly 0 rights.

Yes, yes, and yes again.

So Id say the thai rev department will be in for a pretty interesting surprise and tax related income be down even tho they are gonna tax a few 100ks of foreigners and rich thais.

Plus, observing for 20 years here ... Thais have a consistent habit of "walking back" any promises after they get your money. Large promises and small ones, never fails.

 

[wellington]

Brilliant!

@Marketint understands condo life 100% !

Once discussed bangkok with a friend he had rental in the heart of the city - one of the princesses had the top floor as I understood at the time - I asked why he didn’t buy and he remarked because they’d build another next door and drive the cost down.

Turns out that’s exactly what happened - that’s the one of putting thing about bangkok - at least in Phuket there’s a fixed land supply and villas rise nominally by 10% Pa on avg

Yes, yes, and yes again.



Plus, observing for 20 years here ... Thais have a consistent habit of "walking back" any promises after they get your money. Large promises and small ones, never fails.

Same with marriages - as soon as the promotion period ends lol