Thailand tax update 20/11/23

[wellington]

Missed - but a important update

Income earned before 1/1/24 can be brought into Thailand after 1/1/24 tax feee

They’ll use CRS I guess to check balances overseas to confirm

Thailand’s Revenue Department has issued an order clarifying its recent order imposing personal income tax (PIT) on the offshore-sourced income of Thailand tax residents whenever it is brought into Thailand.

The clarifying order, which was issued on November 20, 2023, confirms that the new rule will not apply to offshore-sourced income earned before January 1, 2024, which is the date the order comes into effect. This means that offshore-sourced income earned before January 1, 2024, will not be subject to PIT if it is brought into Thailand after the year 2023.

This grandfather protection means that Thai tax residents will not have to pay PIT on offshore-sourced income earned before 2024 and brought into Thailand at any time after 2023. This is favorable to many who have earned income from offshore sources but may not have had sufficient time to revise their tax planning in response to the new rule.

 

[blanco]

Any info on how they will deal with people transferring crypto in to for instance Bitkub and selling.
Are they going to ask you for your private crypto wallet or exchange wallet to see whether you've had the funds since before 2024?
If I need to transfer money in without paperwork I guess I'll just OTC crypto for cash locally.

 

[Marzio]

They’ll use CRS I guess to check balances overseas to confirm

Yes, this confirms that they will be checking Thai tax residents offshore bank accounts data.

I wonder if they will also have access to foreign debit carsd ATM withdrawals in Thailand.

 

[wellington]

Any info on how they will deal with people transferring crypto in to for instance Bitkub and selling.
Are they going to ask you for your private crypto wallet or exchange wallet to see whether you've had the funds since before 2024?
If I need to transfer money in without paperwork I guess I'll just OTC crypto for cash locally.

See this is a discussion i've had.

Don't use Bitkub/Satang etc but OTC via backend of one of the large regional players....
- There is a OTC in Thailand, it is regulated, and they throughly process everything by the book.
- Say you do USDC/USDT and these funds were sitting idle before 1/1/24 then they are as good as USD in a bank account.

Due to banks closing expat accounts down, it's hard to get banking overseas 'arguably' so you have your reason if you get any claims of 'non-tax'.

Yes, this confirms that they will be checking Thai tax residents offshore bank accounts data.

I wonder if they will also have access to foreign debit carsd ATM withdrawals in Thailand.

Only works if you hold funds in a bank overseas, then it comes back to paper-trail to prove not income.

If I need to transfer money in without paperwork I guess I'll just OTC crypto for cash locally.

Out of curiosity -> where are you based? -South, Central, East, North?

 

[blanco]

See this is a discussion i've had.

Don't use Bitkub/Satang etc but OTC via backend of one of the large regional players....

Out of curiosity -> where are you based? -South, Central, East, North?

I don't use Bitkub anymore since they started asking for video interviews, more paperwork on source of funds etc..
But there is a large community of P2P (I call it "OTC") you can do.. just meet up and transfer crypto for cash.

I used to have a Binance card where I would just transfer in money as needed, which was great until they caught up with the fact I don't live in my country of citizenship and they canceled it.
There are a few other interesting options on the way but still only available in Europe and you would still of course need to do KYC.

I'm based in BKK since 20 years

 

[wellington]

But there is a large community of P2P (I call it "OTC") you can do.. just meet up and transfer crypto for cash.

I'm HKT (south) -> got a link to the community? here they are Russian and i've always avoided incase i end up in a suitcase in a freezer.

There are a few other interesting options on the way but still only available in Europe and you would still of course need to do KYC.

I know of a few solid ones (corps)... but just don't publicise as they are legit and if funds start flowing to them (dirty) you end up in the middle of it -> bad enough having my ancient binance accounts exposed, a FTX account i never used yet get constant phishing emails over etc.

 

[jafo]

I know of a few solid ones (corps)... but just don't publicise as they are legit and if funds start flowing to them (dirty) you end up in the middle of it

100% this right here!

Same here. I have a few too, but they, my purveyors, are very resourceful & private, but they want to see their customers face-to-face and have a meal with them first. I guess the old-timers version of KYC

 

[scooterguy]

Any info on how they will deal with people transferring crypto in to for instance Bitkub and selling.

The moment you sell it becomes income (capital gains). Capital gains tax on the sale of cryptocurrencies is a flat 15% that is withheld at source: Thailand - Individual - Income determination..

Are they going to ask you for your private crypto wallet or exchange wallet to see whether you've had the funds since before 2024?

I doubt it.

It would be a waste of time because you could just deny having one, or transfer everything to a new one (or new ones), or to a new coin (or coins), etc. It's the capital gains tax at the moment of the sale that it's easier to go after (and done automatically in many cases).

If I need to transfer money in without paperwork I guess I'll just OTC crypto for cash locally.

In that case there is also capital gains tax, but it's probably harder/impossible to control. There is still some risk involved (i.e. risk is not 0).

You could also make the sale in another country (preferably one where you are not a tax resident) and you'd have no reporting to do in Thailand (unless you remit the money, etc.).

 

[wellington]

The moment you sell it becomes income (capital gains). Capital gains tax on the sale of cryptocurrencies is a flat 15% that is withheld at source: Thailand - Individual - Income determination..

Isn't that deferred, FYI stablecoins are recognised world wide as $ equivalent... so it's not income if funds are held in and earnt previously. In addition in a world of debanking it's very obviously something you could challenge in a court.

 

[blanco]

I'm HKT (south) -> got a link to the community? here they are Russian and i've always avoided incase i end up in a suitcase in a freezer.


I know of a few solid ones (corps)... but just don't publicise as they are legit and if funds start flowing to them (dirty) you end up in the middle of it -> bad enough having my ancient binance accounts exposed, a FTX account i never used yet get constant phishing emails over etc.

You can join this telegram community and ask for P2P in Thailand
https://t.me/SatoshiSquareBangkok
There is a website that accepts crypto for gift cards as well. At least you can use it to get food
https://www.bitrefill.com/buy/thailand/

 

[Mercury]

The moment you sell it becomes income (capital gains). Capital gains tax on the sale of cryptocurrencies is a flat 15% that is withheld at source: Thailand - Individual - Income determination..

Withholding tax is not a final tax. As a tax resident you have to declare capital gains (subject to personal income tax rates) in order to pay, or request a refund of, the amount of any tax that has been under-/over-withheld.

However, Revenue Department currently exempts the collection of 15% withholding tax.

I found this Bitkub's support page below to offer the most up-to-date information related to crypto taxation:
https://support.bitkub.com/en/suppo...tocurrency-tax-and-frequently-asked-questions"Currently, there is no law that obliges exchanges to submit their investors’ information to the Revenue Department. Though, investors can request their cryptocurrency trading information from the exchanges so that they can calculate and file the taxation correctly."

Guidance of personal tax income filing for cryptocurrencies and digital tokens (in Thai):
https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/information/manual_crypto_310165.pdf
https://support.bitkub.com/en/suppo...551-tax-guidelines-for-cryptocurrency-trading"We suggest you declare your income from the trades and/or the Referral Program to The Revenue Department in order to prevent retroactive tax collection."

 

[blanco]

does Binance still offer P2P services for Thailand?

 

[wellington]

capital gains (subject to personal income tax rates) in order to pay, or request a refund of, the amount of any tax that has been under-/over-withheld.

If you convert for example

USDC -> THB

You are usually converting USDC at below USD value, and below USD-THB value = No Capital Gain (Capital Loss).

If you have USDC / USDT etc which is 'akin' to a bank account -> since de-banking took off in the West for non-residents, then and if it is prior income = savings - then it's not income.

Thus the tax collected is the fees for the exchange which they collect... at the time, the 15% WHT doesn't exist till 1/1/24.

"We suggest you declare your income from the trades and/or the Referral Program to The Revenue Department in order to prevent retroactive tax collection."

They always do that, but if highlighted like above, you just push it into court and challenge.

USDC/USDT etc is 'savings' if it's not 'income'.

does Binance still offer P2P services for Thailand?

Wouldn't touch Binance now with a 10ft barge pole.

 

[jafo]

Wouldn't touch Binance now with a 10ft barge pole.

Welcome to the club! Binance and CZ are too braggadocious!

 

[blanco]

Welcome to the club! Binance and CZ are too braggadocious!

I don't use Binance, but just think of it as a possible way for getting occasional cash into TH without questions.

I guess Binance's move to set up a new crypto exchange in Thailand is still on the table despite all the fud around them

 

[wellington]

I don't use Binance, but just think of it as a possible way for getting occasional cash into TH without questions.

I guess Binance's move to set up a new crypto exchange in Thailand is still on the table despite all the fud around them

As mentioned before have a OTC (actual institution) -> Never tried P2P and certainly wouldn't do on Binance due to the risk, both in Thailand (tainted funds) or risk outside of Thailand (Binance itself and now it's association to the US Gov).

I wouldn't be opposed to P2P in person (never done in Thailand for the stated reasons above). But at least then you get a feel about he person and the can judge if they are shifty. - I'd also only ever do to cash, i wouldn't want my accounts connected to someone i didn't know - again why i've never done (end up carved up in a freezer).

Otherwise would suggest a really simple solution if you ever want to move funds in without bringing them in as Crypto.

HK Crypto Exchange -> Kasikorn HKD account -> Convert to THB as you need.

HK has regulations/licenses and it's seamless from that front - you know your counterparty isn't a laundering hole, having said that, there is a OTC in Thailand that is regional and is part of a regulated exchange group and their prices are 'good', but they don't deal with small sums/retail (i.e <xk) due to compliance costs.

 

[blanco]

Otherwise would suggest a really simple solution if you ever want to move funds in without bringing them in as Crypto.

HK Crypto Exchange -> Kasikorn HKD account -> Convert to THB as you need.

What's the difference from let's say sending USD from Kraken -> USD account in CitiBank/UOB -> Convert to THB

I assume having a foreign currency account will trigger the same issue when you convert to THB as if the transfer came from abroad?

 

[wellington]

What's the difference from let's say sending USD from Kraken -> USD account in CitiBank/UOB -> Convert to THB

I assume having a foreign currency account will trigger the same issue when you convert to THB as if the transfer came from abroad?

Kraken to Thailand should be fine.

That falls under US law so they are at least regulated.

The thing is if you have funds coming from a regulated entity you yourself shift the compliance from yourself to the entity, i.e if you do a trade with a Iranian (think Binance indictment) that's on them, if you however do a trade P2P with someone of Iranian nationality on P2P on Binance and you route through $ via Binance to your account (their account to yours) or someone laundering funds in Thailand P2P via Binance -> That's on you because the issue will rear over your incoming /outgoing transactions direct to the subject rather than a entity in the middle.

If its P2P (physical = cash) then the risk goes down (a) you can vet, (b) its not utilising the banking system.

If you do OTC well thats usually a financially regulated entity on top of the OTC which carries out the KYC/AML before funds enter the pool.

So Kraken should be fine (if not P2P) -> Funds from a financially regulated entity (Kraken) if you get tainted funds -> it's on them.

Over the years i've read on Aseannow.com about expats arrested due to
a) tainted funds
b) charge backs for fraud (chargeback fraud that entraps the expat by fraud carried out by their P2P party).

That's not to say i am not a supporter of P2P -> I am, i just wouldn't do any transaction P2P which passes through the US (SDNY) OR in a country i hold assets...

Because being ensnared in some laundering activity will cost years and a tonne of money, and possibly criminal charges, because of the size and then the statement of no "money transmitter license" etc for carrying out a P2P transaction.

Nooms or something looks interesting but there's unknown counterparty risk and reliance on utilising the banking rails.

Just one last thought... Kraken oddly is the laundering capital of the world in Crypto -> I know tonnes of Ponzi schemes and the parties involved that have laundered their funds through Kraken.

Oddly i've never see an action against Kraken lol.

 

[Mercury]

Oddly i've never see an action against Kraken lol.

Yet they've started milking the cow, already US$30M paid in fine and further to come.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-237

 

[wellington]

Sure that’s civil - I’m referring to DOJ