USA: Getting an EIN / an ITIN

[Forester]

This thread is created from some off-topic messages from Opening a US personal bank account remotely with ITIN?

BTW, for opening a company account you need an EIN. EIN for a company you cannot (legally) obtain without a Taxpayer Identification Number (SSN, ITIN, or EIN) of the true principal officer, general partner, grantor, owner or trustor (it even makes sense, IMO). There are certain (shady) ways how to bypass it but it represents a fooling with IRS what I would not recommend to anyone wanting to avoid troubles.

 

[daniels27]

BTW, for opening a company account you need an EIN. EIN for a company you cannot (legally) obtain without a Taxpayer Identification Number (SSN, ITIN, or EIN) of the true principal officer, general partner, grantor, owner or trustor (it even makes sense, IMO). There are certain (shady) ways how to bypass it but it represents a fooling with IRS what I would not recommend to anyone wanting to avoid troubles.

EIN does not require anything than a phone call. Am foreign companies can get it if they are doing business in the US. No ITIN or SSN required at least as of free years ago.

Did all myself and have proof.

 

[Forester]

EIN does not require anything than a phone call. Am foreign companies can get it if they are doing business in the US. No ITIN or SSN required at least as of free years ago.

Did all myself and have proof.

Well, the world has changed, I am afraid.
Obtaining an EIN is still just an administrative process and you will get it immediately; but see here

How to Apply for an EIN | Internal Revenue Service

Apply for an Employer Identification Number (EIN) online, or by fax, mail or, for international applicants, by phone.

www.irs.gov

There is clearly written
»All EIN applications (mail, fax, electronic) must disclose the name and Taxpayer Identification Number (SSN, ITIN, or EIN) of the true principal officer, general partner, grantor, owner or trustor. This individual or entity, which the IRS will call the “responsible party,” controls, manages, or directs the applicant entity and the disposition of its funds and assets.«
As I have mentioned, there are certain ways how to circumvent it (I am aware of two); but note that under the US law, it is a felony to lie to a federal official. So I recommend to anyone performing an own due diligence

BTW, obtaining an ITIN is also just an administrative process, the only pitfall is that it takes some weeks .

 

[daniels27]

W8-BEN is, actually, unrelated to the problem discussed. This form can be, under some circumstances, filled in without having a SSN/ an ITIN (check here About Form W-8 BEN, Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding and Reporting (Individuals) | Internal Revenue Service).

Could you share, what bank was engaged? And who was the registering agent for the company? If you do not like to do it in public, indicate it and we can talk privately...

Yes, I agree. (Perhaps not with all and not in any branch, IMO – but it's just a detail...)

Well, yes. Thanks for sharing.

Well, the world has changed, I am afraid.
Obtaining an EIN is still just an administrative process and you will get it immediately; but see here

How to Apply for an EIN | Internal Revenue Service

Apply for an Employer Identification Number (EIN) online, or by fax, mail or, for international applicants, by phone.

www.irs.gov

There is clearly written
»All EIN applications (mail, fax, electronic) must disclose the name and Taxpayer Identification Number (SSN, ITIN, or EIN) of the true principal officer, general partner, grantor, owner or trustor. This individual or entity, which the IRS will call the “responsible party,” controls, manages, or directs the applicant entity and the disposition of its funds and assets.«
As I have mentioned, there are certain ways how to circumvent it (I am aware of two); but note that under the US law, it is a felony to lie to a federal official. So I recommend to anyone performing an own due diligence

BTW, obtaining an ITIN is also just an administrative process, the only pitfall is that it takes some weeks .

Yes but this has always been like this. If you the call the international phone number and do not have an ITIN, they are fine with it. Have you tried?

ITIN is more restrictive now and easily takes over 6 months from the time you mail it. Also you have to mail in a US tax return once every three years to keep using it.

 

[Forester]

= We are going a little off-topic with this but I consider it to be an important matter. Nevertheless, if we continue, I will create a new thread and move some posts there =

Yes but this has always been like this. If you the call the international phone number and do not have an ITIN, they are fine with it. Have you tried?

Not personally as I have never needed it but I witnessed it.
(Technically, currently you can apply by phone only if you are an international/foreign applicant; if your business is located in the U.S. you have to apply on-line to obtain your EIN immediately. But it's just a detail and IMO unimportant for our discussion.)

I guess that I know what you are speaking about. When applying for an EIN in any way, you are actually filling in a SS4 form. On the line 7b, you are to enter the TIN of the responsible party. Per the current instructions, »you can leave it blank or enter “N/A,” “foreign,” or similar language, if the responsible party doesn't have and is ineligible to obtain an SSN or ITIN.« (emphasis mine). In the vast majority of cases, you are eligible to obtain an ITIN, you can ask for it. Therefore (the following is not my wording but a wording of one definitely not stupid US lawyer), „if you (in such a situation) enter there N/A, you will lie to a federal official and there is a written proof of it lasting forever. Consider, whether you really want to do it, especially if not inevitable. ”
Nothing more to add

ITIN is more restrictive now and easily takes over 6 months from the time you mail it.

Yes, it can happen, unfortunately. AFAIK, it is better to apply via one of Acceptance Agents, if abroad.

Also you have to mail in a US tax return once every three years to keep using it.

I do not recall exactly at this moment but I believe you (And it is just a paperwork.)

 

[daniels27]

I guess that I know what you are speaking about. When applying for an EIN in any way, you are actually filling in a SS4 form. On the line 7b, you are to enter the TIN of the responsible party. Per the current instructions, »you can leave it blank or enter “N/A,” “foreign,” or similar language, if the responsible party doesn't have and is ineligible to obtain an SSN or ITIN.« (emphasis mine). In the vast majority of cases, you are eligible to obtain an ITIN, you can ask for it. Therefore (the following is not my wording but a wording of one definitely not stupid US lawyer), „if you (in such a situation) enter there N/A, you will lie to a federal official and there is a written proof of it lasting forever. Consider, whether you really want to do it, especially if not inevitable. ”
Nothing more to add

Not sure which vast majority you are talking about. But most people first need to take quite some actions (or hire an agent to do those for them) in order to become eligible.

The eligibility for ITIN is quite restrictive and the IRS made it like this on purpose. (IRS agent to me "The ITIN is to pay taxes. Unless you want to pay taxes, you won't need one and should not get one.") Long story short, you can check the guides, most people won't need one. And those who get ITINs normally published some fake ebook on Kindle with the only purpose of getting the ITIN letter from Amazon to get the ITIN, which in turn is only used for banking purposes.

Yes, it can happen, unfortunately. AFAIK, it is better to apply via one of Certifying Acceptance Agents, if abroad.

Probably not. The accepting agents abroad are mainly BDO, EY, etc. I personally do not think that they will help you with the ITIN, unless you are an employee/client of UBS and need it for some high-figure business. They US has many small accepting agents, that will help you do it for $50.

 

[Forester]

Not sure which vast majority you are talking about. But most people first need to take quite some actions (or hire an agent to do those for them) in order to become eligible.

The eligibility for ITIN is quite restrictive and the IRS made it like this on purpose. (IRS agent to me "The ITIN is to pay taxes. Unless you want to pay taxes, you won't need one and should not get one.") Long story short, you can check the guides, most people won't need one. And those who get ITINs normally published some fake ebook on Kindle with the only purpose of getting the ITIN letter from Amazon to get the ITIN, which in turn is only used for banking purposes.

Well, it is apparent that you possess some experience and information that is different from mine. Honestly, I do not conduct any business in the US currently, so I do not follow it very carefully; but I like to know how the things now are. I cannot say where the truth is now; I will re-check it with some experts known to me and post the results here...

For now, just one technical remark:

Probably not. The accepting agents abroad are mainly BDO, EY, etc. I personally do not think that they will help you with the ITIN, unless you are an employee/client of UBS and need it for some high-figure business. They US has many small accepting agents, that will help you do it for $50.

It is true that BDO, EY, etc. are accepting agents worldwide (particularly, Deloitte and Touche, Ernst & Young, KPMG, PWC and BDO) and I agree that they are not much likely to help you when you are just a small fish. Nevertheless, currently there is a lot of small agents around the world, look here Acceptance Agent Program | Internal Revenue Service. For example, I was (for some reason) checking Thailand and only in Bangkok there are four.
But really, this is just a technical issue, not the core of the problem...

 

[luap]

I got my ITIN from a CAA on Fiverr. There are some fake ones so verify they are a real CAA on the IRS Website after messaging them. Took me about 3 months from start to finish, did the verification over Zoom.

 

[daniels27]

I got my ITIN from a CAA on Fiverr. There are some fake ones so verify they are a real CAA on the IRS Website after messaging them. Took me about 3 months from start to finish, did the verification over Zoom.

Cool. When was it? Did they also create the eligibility for you?

 

[Forester]

I got my ITIN from a CAA on Fiverr. There are some fake ones so verify they are a real CAA on the IRS Website after messaging them. Took me about 3 months from start to finish, did the verification over Zoom.

Thanks for sharing!

Cool. When was it? Did they also create the eligibility for you?

I second these questions; and add two of mine: Where was the agent located – in the US or abroad? And did you ask being in the same country or in a different country?

 

[luap]

About 6 months back. They did everything, all remotely.