WebApp / IT Services Company (can relocate to anywhere)

[giggitty]

I cannot advise you on that, you should talk to a good Panamanian tax lawyer. You can check Legal500 for the best lawyers in a country. Or just talk to one of the BIG4 companies.
What I meant was that, Panama simply exempts certain kinds of income from taxation. So they could raise their corporate tax rate to 40% and it still wouldn't make a difference, as long as your income falls into the exempted categories (foreign-sourced).

OK, thank you. I thought you were alluding to the fact that the 25% corporate would ultimately have to be paid at some point, even on foreign sourced income, e.g. if it doesn't stay foreign and goes back to Panama corporation. I see now what you were saying.

I will check out Legal500 - Thank you for the recommendation.

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

Be aware that Panama is closing its Friendly Nations visa. If you're interested in Panama, you should probably hurry, as there are only a few weeks left to apply. The visa is only $3000 or so. Once you have it, you'd be able to keep it.
But new applications won't be possible, or require a substantial investment.

 

[JackAlabama]

Be aware that Panama is closing its Friendly Nations visa. If you're interested in Panama, you should probably hurry, as there are only a few weeks left to apply. The visa is only $3000 or so. Once you have it, you'd be able to keep it.
But new applications won't be possible, or require a substantial investment.

Panama is somewhat similar to US, so you will find it easy to adopt if you live in us for so long. Just gotta know Spanish.
For europeans/asians, Panama is a steeper step to adopt and EU does not like them and depending what you want to do with the Panama residency, it can make life more difficult with banks due to Panamas bad reputation.

Also you gotta really hurry with the friendly nation visa, I've read till 20 august you should have filed it and gotten your temp residency card before that day.

 

[ih8socialism]

Please note that as I have mentioned it is likely your business line would fall under the IP Box regime and therefore the corporate tax would be 2.5% instead of 12.5%

Sounds pretty interesting. Didn't know theres an new IP Box option within the EU. The last interesting one was in Lux iirc but they didn't accept anyone new back then. You got any further informations on the cyprus one?

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

Does that still exist? I thought Cyprus had done away with that a couple years ago?
I thought Ireland or Malta might still have something like that though?

 

[giggitty]

Thank you both for the input. I was unaware that Panama are closing the Friendly Nations Visa window. I'm not sure that I'm ready to commit to living in Panama just yet.

My general plan was to base the corporation there and continue being a true Nomad for a few more years (perhaps forever, or until health declines; I'm nearly 40). Before covid I was travelling 365 day a year for several years (visiting the US periodically to keep the green card). Now that Covid is subsiding, I'm back to travelling (been in Europe since May with a rental car until November and I've been visiting various countries). Even during Covid I was renting long-term airbnb's. I haven't rented aa real apartment since 2017. Committing to living in one place will be a big step for me.

My understanding is that Panama allows foreigners to own corporations in Panama, meaning my plan should be possible,. But, if I'm wrong about that, then I should jump on the Friendly Nations visa.

I've been to Panama many times and have spent extended periods there. I greatly prefer being outside the major cities (Panama city is too noisy for me)... and fortunately I'm very strong in Spanish so I can communicate just about everywhere.

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

You should really talk to a Panamanian immigration/tax lawyer ASAP.
I believe that if you base your company in Panama, it would be subject to 25% corporate income tax - unless you have a foreign branch elsewhere or so.
So it would probably be beneficial for you to only have your personal residency in Panama (you don't have to spend much time there) and set up the company somewhere else.
Panama is very popular with nomads - but that window is closing now. Instead of thinking about it, you should just contact a lawyer as soon as possible to discuss your options.
Honestly, if you're considering moving to Panama later, I would just lock in that visa now. Worst case you've spent $3000 for nothing, but then at least it would give you the option to decide later if you want to live there or not.

 

[JackAlabama]

The bank account opening will be tricky if you can't produce readily kyc docs for the Panama banks, but your lawyers can help. You know the game with utility bills, blood and stool sample .
But you need to decide muy muy pronto.
If you base your corp there, you will then pay tax if you transfer from corp to personal as it is in-country earnings.
You also do not need to live in Panama under that visa. I made it years back as backup and actually never lived there as of yet, maybe in the future.

 

[giggitty]

sigh.... I don't like rushing on things, but maybe I have to do so here.

The real hold-back is the US green card (LPR). If I apply for residency somewhere else, then I'm de-facto making the decision to give up the LPR (as per the terms of the LPR). And, I should expect they'll find out about that and invalidate the LPR whether I like it or not. Although I'm fairly certain about wanting to abandon the LPR anyway, I was hoping to make that decision closer to November, after the European trip.

I have some thinking to do (and lawyers to find).

Thanks again for your insights.

 

[JackAlabama]

sigh.... I don't like rushing on things, but maybe I have to do so here.

The real hold-back is the US green card (LPR). If I apply for residency somewhere else, then I'm de-facto making the decision to give up the LPR (as per the terms of the LPR). And, I should expect they'll find out about that and invalidate the LPR whether I like it or not. Although I'm fairly certain about wanting to abandon the LPR anyway, I was hoping to make that decision closer to November, after the European trip.

I have some thinking to do (and lawyers to find).

Thanks again for your insights.

Oh, that is adding another complexity to the mix. Well, and its the US, they certainly have the will and resource to take that seriously.
And for getting us citizenship first and then the extra residency afterwards, there is no time left and you would have to go to Paraguay instead

Well, shoot me a PM if you need a trusted lawyer. They are not the cheapest but got the job done really quick and well which is not a given in that part of the world. Other people interested in Panama told me most lawyers are buried in work as everyone wants the last sit on the tanker before friendly nations closes.

 

[CyprusLaw]

Sounds pretty interesting. Didn't know theres an new IP Box option within the EU. The last interesting one was in Lux iirc but they didn't accept anyone new back then. You got any further informations on the cyprus one?

Can I PM you?

 

[giggitty]

And for getting us citizenship first and then the extra residency afterwards, there is no time left and you would have to go to Paraguay instead

I have been "dating" the US for 20 years. If I wanted to "marry" the US (get citizenship), I'd probably have done it by done. I don't like the idea of marriage. I am a man who believes in keeping one's options open

Also, being a citizen would subject me to "worldwide income", even if I left the US for an extended period. No thanks!

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

I don't think you have to rush the decision. With an EU passport, I'm sure there will be options for you to get residency in Panama later, even if it may cost a bit more.
But I would definitely start talking to a lawyer ASAP, so you get a clear picture of what your options are.
I just asked a friend who got the Friendly Nations Visa, she used this company:

PGS - Integrated Legal Services | Panama | PGS Legal

PGS Integrated Legal Services - Panama Immigration, Relocation Services, Residencies and Visas, Real Estate Legal Services, Tax Advice, Asset Protection Plans and Family Planning, Probate Law, Commercial and Corporate Law.

www.pgs.legal

Seems like they have both tax and immigration lawyers.
I haven't worked with them, so I can't comment on their performance, but she was happy.

 

[JackAlabama]

I don't think you have to rush the decision. With an EU passport, I'm sure there will be options for you to get residency in Panama later, even if it may cost a bit more.
But I would definitely start talking to a lawyer ASAP, so you get a clear picture of what your options are.
I just asked a friend who got the Friendly Nations Visa, she used this company:

PGS - Integrated Legal Services | Panama | PGS Legal

PGS Integrated Legal Services - Panama Immigration, Relocation Services, Residencies and Visas, Real Estate Legal Services, Tax Advice, Asset Protection Plans and Family Planning, Probate Law, Commercial and Corporate Law.

www.pgs.legal

Seems like they have both tax and immigration lawyers.
I haven't worked with them, so I can't comment on their performance, but she was happy.

yep there are options, you need to drop 200k$ in Panamas real estate casino or get a real job there. That will be the option for the time being.
Then you get a two year temp residency and after that the PR (while handing in docs again).
Friendly nations was around 7-8k$ cost all in for life resulting in a national id card with 10 year validity and PR for life.

 

[JustAnotherNomad]

I think the cost for the Friendly Nations visa is more like $2-3k, plus a $5k deposit, which you get back after a few weeks or so.

 

[ih8socialism]

Can I PM you?

Yes sure go ahead

 

[knuk]

Also, being a citizen would subject me to "worldwide income", even if I left the US for an extended period.

dude, you are already a US person, and as a long term resident (more than 8 years) you are already subject to the exit tax if you abandon the green card. Dude you are fucked if you haven't declared your worldwide income already.

Also, you seem to be conflating two issues here as well.
Just because you lose your immigration status doesn't mean you are free from your tax obligations, that is only true if you held your greencard for less than 8 years.
And if you never return to the US, or let the green card expire, you are still subject to the US tax law no matter where you live until you formally file the I-407 and the form 8854 along with your last tax return.

 

[giggitty]

dude, you are already a US person, and as a long term resident (more than 8 years) you are already subject to the exit tax if you abandon the green card. Dude you are fucked if you haven't declared your worldwide income already.

Also, you seem to be conflating two issues here as well.
Just because you lose your immigration status doesn't mean you are free from your tax obligations, that is only true if you held your greencard for less than 8 years.
And if you never return to the US, or let the green card expire, you are still subject to the US tax law no matter where you live until you formally file the I-407 and the form 8854 along with your last tax return.

My point is about the future. Once I get out and pay whatever is due, I'm free from those obligations going forward. I want to get out now and pay the exit while my company is still small and worth less, that way when it grows to become larger I will not owe those taxes to the US. It's growing fast, so the sooner I do it, the better.

 

[knuk]

My point is about the future. Once I get out and pay whatever is due, I'm free from those obligations going forward. I want to get out now and pay the exit while my company is still small and worth less, that way when it grows to become larger I will not owe those taxes to the US. It's growing fast, so the sooner I do it, the better.

Join the streamline filing before it is over... They already got rid of OVDP, so the clock may be ticking to get into compliance.
Especially in this pandemic crisis, everything seems to be tending to eliminate tax reliefs and tighten their rules ever more.

 

[giggitty]

Especially in this pandemic crisis, everything seems to be tending to eliminate tax reliefs and tighten their rules ever more.

Tighten the rules while spending infinite money AND raising taxes! It's nuts. They've gone "drunk" on their money-printing machine and the chickens will eventually come home to roost. The advantages the US offered 20 years ago made it "worth it" to "put up with it", but there's no end in sight to their madness. Other countries have really caught up, and with everything being online - including my business/revenue - the location is almost irrelevant. So, unfortunately it's time to say goodbye to the US. I've already been abroad for nearly 5 months and don't miss the US one bit. I'm a lot happier outside the US, in fact.