Best crypto heaven

[Cavaliere]

If one has a 7/8 figures crypto token operating in a grey area (trading platform, NOT a DEX, but with lots of US users) what is the best jurisdiction to move to from EU (Malta) to escape tax and regulatory hell and live with relative safety. This can be any island or jurisdiction. Right now imagine this token has no certification or even a company but millions to sell into LP and / or OTC. If the "CEO" could move anywhere with no wife kids but an American and French partner how does he make sure he himself is maximally protected against dark lords like Gary Gensler or blackwitch von Der Leyen.

No users have been duped, there is no rugpulling like with Unibot team, just cash-machine and hatred of rules.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

First you need to dissociate yourself from the American partner and become familiar with RICO. Only then you can find a safe place.

 

[wellington]

Right now imagine this token has no certification or even a company but millions to sell into LP and / or OTC. If the "CEO" could move anywhere with no wife kids but an American and French partner how does he make sure he himself is maximally protected against dark lords like Gary Gensler or blackwitch von Der Leyen.

He can't.

When there's an American at the APEX of a company the US Has world wide jurisdiction over the company, that's all regulatory, policing, and tax agencies.

When there's active American participants (used to be if they came to you and you didn't promote to them, and had restrictions against them, then you were ok for securities, not fraud etc), these days it just takes 1 American user to give US Jurisdiction, then you will likely find things like cloudflare, aws, banking, $ usage outside the US etc opens and strengthens jurisdiction, but they have you immediately on the APEX.

Some used to say run to UAE, UAE routinely ejects people rather than having to deal with extradition etc, which means they land directly into the hands of the FBI or equivalent, even MaCafee when ejected from Dominican was sent to the UK then arrested in Spain, there's a lot of countries that will just prefer to have good relations with the US as an example if the US wants the person big enough, and selling millions into LP will be ideal as they (SEC) put the funds into an account at the Treasury which the Treasury can then loan against to buy Bonds from the Fed etc...

*Note Thailand is doing the same approach now 'revoking visa's'.

Just know as a Non-American the regulatory and justice system will not be in your favour, i know of a guy that did a ICO token pumped no fraud, but because he used market makers, the CFTC fined him 16m $ for what was roughly 6m$ and 90% of which was spent on infrastructure, development, salaries etc because he couldn't afford 150k for a representation, and there's another guy i read about that is serving 14 years for what an American on a much larger scale got 500k in fines for and i personally know banked 30m$ in 2018-19 and now has a billion $ in ETH stashed away.

So nowt, you are fucked.

----

If involved in Crypto (Web3 Dev) the best thing you can do is cut America off from all avenues, commercial, dev, marketing, providers (vendors), customers, banking, currency etc...

Concentrate on the arbitrage play and do in Asia, for the Chinese market (legal, not grey), and the technology adoption/transfer will be rewarded handsomely by building in Asia...

 

[Cavaliere]

When there's an American at the APEX of a company the US Has world wide jurisdiction over the company, that's all regulatory, policing, and tax agencies.

The American is mainly doing business-development. The CEO can move anywhere (it's me). I was thinking maybe Macau? As of now I have never even touched my gains but obviously I want to cash out, even if it means a decade in exile in Asia.

To further elaborate, no actual trading is happening on our end. Our product is an interface to existing liquidity that makes trading derivatives really easy, but we do not actually offer our own financial instruments. All "financial advice" is relayed from Twitter and other influencers. We also plan on partnering with a company that is 100% based in the US and handles the database of our clients private keys shifting the legal risk to them if something goes wrong.

Does this change anything? We have only done influencer marketing and stuff like that. No pump and dump behavior or butchering retail.

Concentrate on the arbitrage play and do in Asia, for the Chinese market (legal, not grey), and the technology adoption/transfer will be rewarded handsomely by building in Asia...

That is good advice, what about the news that China will ban all crypto? Just smoke and mirrors? The US and their goons seem to be everywhere...

 

[wellington]

The American is mainly doing business-development. The CEO can move anywhere (it's me). I was thinking maybe Macau? As of now I have never even touched my gains but obviously I want to cash out, even if it means a decade in exile in Asia.

Like i said, when a American works for a company it gives the US a lot of access points.

Dump the liability, liquidate and refund and relaunch elsewhere cutting of US access points.

Even if its not criminal, civil will f**k you just as hard (see Adam Todd as an example).

We have only done influencer marketing and stuff like that. No pump and dump behavior or butchering retail.

You've screwed yourself there also.

Paying unlicensed "Finfluencer" (financial advisors regardless of their legal statements" which has drawn in the crowds, and in your own words Yanks...

China just made assets legal status, and allowing HK to play the arbitraging role, like the UK did with the Derivatives market, Euro-dollar market etc against the US.

Broadly speaking the markets are ASEAN based, youth, money, technical understanding, Americans look for get rich schemes due to monetary debasement, and they are 'loud' when they feel they've been hurt (actual, or through their own greed/stupidity).

Drop them like a rock with a tonne of chainage into the depths of the deep.

There's zero statute of limitations (SEC, CIVIL) as you are not in the US, criminal is furthered by each act if its deemed you've done something criminal.

what about the news that China will ban all crypto?

 

[Cavaliere]

China just made assets legal status, and allowing HK to play the arbitraging role, like the UK did with the Derivatives market, Euro-dollar market etc against the US.

So what is the best place to operate from then, since one would have to live in Asia. Hong Kong? It would not be my drug of choice. Macau is a lot less crowded. Where would you go if you were me? Japan seems too bureaucratic, Philiphines is a shithole, South-Korea too much rules...

Interesting view likening HK crypto strat. to the euro-dollar market surfacing in the 20th century.

What about statute of limitations on civil charges? I remember Joe Biden extending something from five to ten... let's pray The Donald can grab the crown.

 

[wellington]

So what is the best place to operate from then, since one would have to live in Asia. Hong Kong? It would not be my drug of choice. Macau is a lot less crowded. Where would you go if you were me? Japan seems too bureaucratic, Philiphines is a shithole, South-Korea too much rules...

Interesting view likening HK crypto strat. to the euro-dollar market surfacing in the 20th century.

What about statute of limitations on civil charges? I remember Joe Biden extending something from five to ten... let's pray The Donald can grab the crown.

Crypto related?

Bangkok/Phuket, Johur (proximity to singapore), Singapore, HK (fantastic).

Run company overseas... from choice, except Johur, company in Singapore, but live in Johur for the benefits of cost savings, tax etc, or vice versa.

2021 Civil (SEC is 5, 10 if fraud (specific word), if US person operating within the US, outside the US as or not as a citizen its infinity) or clock starts ticking based on when entering the US...

Criminal different... furtherance, MLAT, etc all add additional time spans on (wouldn't advise criminal... hear some horror stories).

Civil wise, i'd just block of US, and tell US Citizens to do one if employees, if they are serious they'd drop the citizenship.

One thing you need to understand (case law i've forgotten the name of the case - too much wine), but basically in 2017 it was decreed that 'profits' can be disgorged, so if you legally spent money on salaries, operational costs etc you didn't get disgorged of those (unless unjust enrichment yourself), in 2021 - 2022 the supreme court case was walked back with the defence bill (must pass bill) and now they disgorge profits legally spent on operating etc, fines, and so on.

Hence that Adam Todd getting fucked for a legit company that didn't paint within the lines.

He was British FYI operating out of Eastern Europe following UK (Seychelles) etc law, and just found himself in Miami later (or Florida and they went back and back etc).

It's state racketeering, but you've also got pirates on the other0side... reminds me of 16-1700 Caribbean.

And anyone who tells you to keep the yank is a moron, that guy is a chain around your throat.

 

[Cavaliere]

if they are serious they'd drop the citizenship.

Luckily he/she does not have US citizenship. But if I read carefully basically any involvement with the US means you're fucked. And you need to get licensed everywhere. Ugh. So SVG is also not a good option then I guess. Really the best way is to live in a place where they do not care about Americans. What about the 1000s of crypto's that are run without licenses, they will all be sued? Or is it American Roulette haha.

Do you think the shenanigans from the US will end if the GOP wins their election? I will make sure to not set food in the country and not host any servers there. Singapore has grabbed my attention mainly now. I like their beer ;-). Johur looks good too, but the air quality seems pretty s**t: Johor Bahru Air Quality Index (AQI) and Malaysia Air Pollution | IQAir. What is the water like, is it a big pile of toxic waste? What is life like, lots of expats too or mainly muslims?

HK (fantastic)

Hong Kong Flooded by Heaviest Rains in Over a Century

The metro has been inundated, cars were swept away and stock trading was canceled as the deluge outdoes wreckage from last week’s supertyphoon.

www.wsj.com

I don't like Hong Kong because of stuff like this, and I would want a garden at least. I don't want to live in a place that exposed to all sort of black swans for the highest price in the world.

 

[anotherDev]

To further elaborate, no actual trading is happening on our end. Our product is an interface to existing liquidity that makes trading derivatives really easy, but we do not actually offer our own financial instruments. All "financial advice" is relayed from Twitter and other influencers. We also plan on partnering with a company that is 100% based in the US and handles the database of our clients private keys shifting the legal risk to them if something goes wrong.

Finding ourselves in a very similar situation with OP with the difference that no token is involved ( OP please dm me btw ). We are looking for a jurisdiction to incorporate. Although we are an interface above existing liquidity reading crypto license requirements make me feel that someone could interpret us as an exchange. Given that we cant KYC users (market is like this) where can we incorporate this?

 

[diatessaron]

Finding ourselves in a very similar situation with OP with the difference that no token is involved ( OP please dm me btw ). We are looking for a jurisdiction to incorporate. Although we are an interface above existing liquidity reading crypto license requirements make me feel that someone could interpret us as an exchange. Given that we cant KYC users (market is like this) where can we incorporate this?

How did you get access to the liquidity without a license? Does the liquidity provider know what you're doing? It doesn't matter whether you're an interface or not, you're offering exchange services.

 

[anotherDev]

How did you get access to the liquidity without a license? Does the liquidity provider know what you're doing? It doesn't matter whether you're an interface or not, you're offering exchange services.

Dex routers are open for everyone to use.

How did you get access to the liquidity without a license? Does the liquidity provider know what you're doing? It doesn't matter whether you're an interface or not, you're offering exchange services.

Basically, we want to incorporate in a place that voices like you don’t exist. Any suggestions ?

 

[diatessaron]

Dex routers are open for everyone to use.


Basically, we want to incorporate in a place that voices like you don’t exist. Any suggestions ?

There's no need to incorporate if you're a DEX like Uniswap or an exchange like Godex.io. Once you incorporate you will be a legal entity which will have to obey local or international law, and that means verifying your users ID or you get hit with the money laundry charge (which might already be in the books since dex's operate in the gray area, mentioning Uniswap again as they were under a US attack not too long ago). I don't know if you're offering your services to US or EU users but if you are, stop doing it.

Afaik there's no country in the world in which you can incorporate and keep the same business model.

 

[anotherDev]

There's no need to incorporate if you're a DEX like Uniswap or an exchange like Godex.io. Once you incorporate you will be a legal entity which will have to obey local or international law, and that means verifying your users ID or you get hit with the money laundry charge (which might already be in the books since dex's operate in the gray area, mentioning Uniswap again as they were under a US attack not too long ago). I don't know if you're offering your services to US or EU users but if you are, stop doing it.

Afaik there's no country in the world in which you can incorporate and keep the same business model.

As explained we are not an exchange. We are not a dex. We just utilise existing Dexes. We are an interface above EXISTING DEXES THAT WE ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH. So we are looking to incorporate this software company.

 

[diatessaron]

As explained we are not an exchange. We are not a dex. We just utilise existing Dexes. We are an interface above EXISTING DEXES THAT WE ARE NOT ASSOCIATED WITH. So we are looking to incorporate this software company.

It does not matter, you will be considered an exchange as you are not only running an interface but you are providing exchange services through this interface even though liquidity comes from somewhere else. You're an exchange.

 

[anotherDev]

It does not matter, you will be considered an exchange as you are not only running an interface but you are providing exchange services through this interface even though liquidity comes from somewhere else. You're an exchange.

Or we are just referring people to an exchange. Since they just transact directly with that exchange and we keep a fee

 

[diatessaron]

Or we are just referring people to an exchange. Since they just transact directly with that exchange and we keep a fee

I'll type this one more time. You are an exchange. If you have a hard time believing what I'm tryping please ask a lawyer.

 

[Rotor]

If one has a 7/8 figures crypto token operating in a grey area (trading platform, NOT a DEX, but with lots of US users) what is the best jurisdiction to move to from EU (Malta) to escape tax and regulatory hell and live with relative safety. This can be any island or jurisdiction. Right now imagine this token has no certification or even a company but millions to sell into LP and / or OTC. If the "CEO" could move anywhere with no wife kids but an American and French partner how does he make sure he himself is maximally protected against dark lords like Gary Gensler or blackwitch von Der Leyen.

No users have been duped, there is no rugpulling like with Unibot team, just cash-machine and hatred of rules.

Enquire about BVI.

 

[gh0p]

Or we are just referring people to an exchange. Since they just transact directly with that exchange and we keep a fee

Others on here are correct you should listen. Your best response was below by @diatessaron

There's no need to incorporate if you're a DEX like Uniswap or an exchange like Godex.io. Once you incorporate you will be a legal entity which will have to obey local or international law, and that means verifying your users ID or you get hit with the money laundry charge (which might already be in the books since dex's operate in the gray area, mentioning Uniswap again as they were under a US attack not too long ago). I don't know if you're offering your services to US or EU users but if you are, stop doing it.

Afaik there's no country in the world in which you can incorporate and keep the same business model.

I would say to the extend that you are collecting ANY type of fee or commission it makes you a business. Based on what you are describing it seems to me you are a service aggregator which is not a new concept. If you gave links and didn't collect any fee directly through affiliate or indirectly with deals you generally wouldn't be required to collect any KYC or have any obligation of the sorts (purely informational resource). Being an interface on its own can be problematic hence services like Uniswap have theirs decentralized as there is no specific IP or server they can hit with their tools to lead to total destruction or unavailability of said service.

You could take a look at restructuring it as a DAO possibly with a fairly distributed token that would give you the ability to incorporate in DAO-favorable jurisdictions/structures. It would give you some control over the representative entity (might even be non-profit) while you take any profits by being an investor/holder of native token. Afterwards any profits you take will most likely be taxed to you as individual. Depending on where you incorporate you might be obliged to KYC all token holders or have a limited number of them (e.g <100). You most definitely should follow up with an expert on all including a lawyer as previously suggested to you.

 

[anotherDev]

Others on here are correct you should listen. Your best response was below by @diatessaron



I would say to the extend that you are collecting ANY type of fee or commission it makes you a business. Based on what you are describing it seems to me you are a service aggregator which is not a new concept. If you gave links and didn't collect any fee directly through affiliate or indirectly with deals you generally wouldn't be required to collect any KYC or have any obligation of the sorts (purely informational resource). Being an interface on its own can be problematic hence services like Uniswap have theirs decentralized as there is no specific IP or server they can hit with their tools to lead to total destruction or unavailability of said service.

You could take a look at restructuring it as a DAO possibly with a fairly distributed token that would give you the ability to incorporate in DAO-favorable jurisdictions/structures. It would give you some control over the representative entity (might even be non-profit) while you take any profits by being an investor/holder of native token. Afterwards any profits you take will most likely be taxed to you as individual. Depending on where you incorporate you might be obliged to KYC all token holders or have a limited number of them (e.g <100). You most definitely should follow up with an expert on all including a lawyer as previously suggested to you.

First of all, thanks for the convo. Uniswap recently started charging a fee through their interface. We are not something more than that. I wonder how they operate this. Since the contracts are decentralised yes but the interface runs through a server so....

 

[JohnLocke]

When there's an American at the APEX of a company the US Has world wide jurisdiction over the company, that's all regulatory, policing, and tax agencies.

Something you have to think about if you start a business in this industry.