Brokerage account for Panama company

[JackAlabama]

How do you mean? we supplied a physical document. But they don't accept. needs to be "online". Do you think the "register" will seriously change their website for us?(as they somehow ask for) Don't think thats realistic.

The only thing you can provide is the physical share certificate or some correspondence with your lawyers regarding that ownership. There is no way that is a public info as of now.

I'd treat that as the "modern-world-way" of saying: No - gtfo - Panama no mas.

 

[nobel]

Only 1 bank charges your mentionned sum for incoming SEPA, the others are free. For outcoming, it will be around 30 € for SEPA and 30€ + 0.65% for SWIFT, along those lines. But negotiating is common and some "good clients" obtained as low as 0.1% eventually.
Workaround, typically for smaller amounts, Paysend and Wise can get your money out of the country to the SEPA zone for free or quasi via card payment (one bank in particular set my debit card's limit to 50k /day without a fight). Anyway, lit people bank abroad while keeping the minimum to live inside, for the sake of convenience. I do maintain a list of all foreign banks and EMIs compatible with local residents and the choice is still quite large despite restrictions

Can you recommend several Spanish banks that open accounts with residence Andorra with no or few fees? I need a Spanish IBAN. Also the list with EMIs for residence Andorra. Thank you!

 

[romalo]

Do you mind to share which lawyer advised you through PM ? In fact, other friends confirmed me the 2% discounted tax regime was abolished
About the 4% holding regime, almost no juridiction worldwide fit in, Romania at 5% but only matching specific conditions, Barbados at 5.5% but requiring economic substance, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Montenegro, Hungary, not financially interesting (7.5%-9%) to be noticeable.

Andorra is nice overall (there since 10 years)
About local banks, they disregard the SEPA norm fee wise outbound, so it's not economical to get money out of the country. No SEPA Instant. Their risk appetite can be picky. I.e. crypto handling is manageable to some extent but tricky but I was also invited to leave 3 out of the 5 banks for just transfering money to Forex brokers abroad years ago, which were deemed as "bridge accounts", making me a criminal, ah. Instead, as a fix for this blockage, I was proposed to trade through their desk via phone, no terminal, at outrageous 10 fold fees hahaha.
Even commercial traders can be bothered because half the banks target private banking and now with merger & acquisitions, there will soon be left only 3 institutions to serve the country. All in all, you're better off to bank abroad (even in nearby Spain), which is doable but with limited choice since being outside of the EEA zone often closes doors.

There is no legal fundamental right to be granted owbership of at least one local bank account, unlike in France. It remains a privilege. It's your duty to maintain at least one since it's going to be mandatory to function here (for instance, tax refunds cannot happen on foreign accounts, but not only). So watch out, because if they ever decide to kick you out following a mistep judged in their eyes, there is no turning back. If your activities are commonly typical though, there should be no problem if you select the right horse to partner with.

Andorra Solutions - Tax advisors, company formation + residency Andorra
Please contact them and keep us up to date. You bring usefull information I see
(ps.The 2nd lawyer did not respond(yet))

Banks and authorities must comply with the SEPA rule and also transfer refunds outside of Andorra.
But the banks in Andorra and everything else are pretty bitchy. I know they charge at least 50€ and more for a SEPA transfer. Incoming SEPA money costs about 12€. Rip off! Do not keep your wealth in Andorra!!

Plane was to keep 1 bank in Andorra as it is an obligation, then a second offshore neo bank for daily stuff. Private and business. Not usre if Paysera business offshore is available for Andorra?

The only thing you can provide is the physical share certificate or some correspondence with your lawyers regarding that ownership. There is no way that is a public info as of now.

I'd treat that as the "modern-world-way" of saying: No - gtfo - Panama no mas.

hahaha exaclty!!

update:
Swissquote confirmed, NO, no 3rd part deposits.
Wittix: dropped price again, from plan f, to c to a.
ConnectPay: YES. Swift in/out €50.- no %, BUT -> €500/month minimum fee!

Bankera:

negative:
No email about deposit.(No API)
Deposit to JP morgen londen
Swift € incoming 1% ($=€18)
Swift € outgoing 2% ($=0,2%)

positive:
Sepa incoming/outgoing FREE
Swift incoming in $ = €18,-


Wittix:

negative:
No Api
Email notification??
Sepa incoming/outgoing 0,15% (Swift should be almost free)
Swift incoming/outgoing €30+0,15%
BIGGEST problem in/out to risk country +0,3%

positives
Swift costs are relatively okay.(still high)


ConnectPay

negative:
€500 minimum fee costst per month, even on inactive account
Cross-border payments (IN/OUT)** 50 € (this is swift? or also sepa cross border?)

positives:
BIG: Merchant API
Sepa almost free, but its a trick??



I think they are all multi currency will check.
Will also check if clients can send money directly or need to send to central bank in London (like with Bankera)

pro/con list for who's interested.

 

[mAzzy]

Andorra Solutions is not a lawyer but a gestoria or a general advisor without a licenced qualification if you prefer. Anybody can open a gestoria since the activity is not regulated here.
Contact a real lawyer for accure advices > Relació d'advocats

Paysera welcomes customers from Andorra, as well as BBVA or Santander in nearby Spain

 

[romalo]

Andorra Solutions is not a lawyer but a gestoria or a general advisor without a licenced qualification if you prefer. Anybody can open a gestoria since the activity is not regulated here.
Contact a real lawyer for accure advices > Relació d'advocats

Paysera welcomes customers from Andorra, as well as BBVA or Santander in nearby Spain

Our team | Augé Legal & Fiscal

Lawyers and advisors with solid experience in law, taxation, immigration, and real estate in the Principality of Andorra.

augelegalfiscal.com

This is the other one I contacted, they claim to be lawyers. I'm waiting for their response.

Please explain, this Andorra Solutions was my nr1 because these guys responded quick and know a lot compared to others. Is a gestoria a real bad thing? I want a price quote for them with succes fee. I want the 2% CIT max 4% else I will not proceed.

Only 1 bank charges your mentionned sum for incoming SEPA, the others are free. For outcoming, it will be around 30 € for SEPA and 30€ + 0.65% for SWIFT, along those lines. But negotiating is common and some "good clients" obtained as low as 0.1% eventually.
Workaround, typically for smaller amounts, Paysend and Wise can get your money out of the country to the SEPA zone for free or quasi via card payment (one bank in particular set my debit card's limit to 50k /day without a fight). Anyway, lit people bank abroad while keeping the minimum to live inside, for the sake of convenience. I do maintain a list of all foreign banks and EMIs compatible with local residents and the choice is still quite large despite restrictions

Your last frase is interesting, but it says "local residents', you mean Panama company Panama resident?

Do you think Andorra banks will accept my case? in Litouwia it's all EMI, no real banks. I prefer a real own bank with real own bank account number.

 

[mAzzy]

For reference

The effective general tax rate in Andorra is 10% over the tax profit, but there is a special tax rate for collective investment vehicles, which is 0%. Likewise, there is a special effective tax rate of 2% (this is the result of a deduction over the tax basis) for companies that are: (i) international trading companies; (ii) financial intragroup companies; and (iii) intellectual and industrial property management companies. Nevertheless, these special regimes have been amended or eliminated according to Act 6/2018, amending Act 95/2010 of 29 December, regulating Corporate Income Tax, approved as law on 19 April 2018 by the General Council of Andorra. Notwithstanding, in the case of elimination of the special regimes, they will be gradually reduced until the end of the financial year 2020. The regime for holding companies (subsidiaries of which may be either resident or nonresident) is still very attractive, since the tax rate for profits distributed by subsidiaries in the form of dividends, or capital gains arising from the sale of shares of foreign subsidiaries, is 0%. Nevertheless, the new law establishes that non-resident subsidiaries must be subject to a tax rate of at least 40% of the Andorran corporate tax rate or must be resident in a country which has a Double Tax Treaty with Andorra.

 

[romalo]

Super accurate info.Seems you are a wise man.

"The 2% special trading tax regime in Andorra no longer exists. No escape to the default 10%"

0 escapes? also not through a smart dividend route? Are they just checking what country the money is coming form, and what CIT they have up there?

Or I really have to show tax reports to the tax-government from Andorra?

 

[romalo]

Update:

Finci : NO
IFX : NO, which is weird, because Wittix uses IFX for their Swift transactions.

Conclusion: Only bankera and wittix seem okay but very very expensive.
they dont use dedicated Swift bank account numbers. They use shared swift codes, not using my company name but 3rd part name. This looks really weird to our customers.
Maybe it is better to go tthe naughty route:

Open account on transferwise(Panama not listed but colombia yes), on a company which I never use in Colombia and has almost the same company name as in Panama.
Let the customers pay to the Transferwise accounts (IBAN)
and then send the money to Panama. (on the website they say from/to Panama is okay)

Theory:
Transferwise has 100% no CRS
CRS is not applicable on active operational business accounts, only private.
Sending euro to euro is just 4 euro instead of 50,- euro.
True?

 

[romalo]

Good news.
Andorra 2% regime is still active according to lawyer
Patent box regime still exists, it is just a little bot limited. We should analyses the application of this regime in your case, in order to determine the best way to proceed and verify if it would be totally or partially applicable.

 

[romalo]

For reference

mAzzy, hope you laugh about this one.
You adviced only to talk with real lawyers and not the company Andorra-Solutions. Which sounded as a good advice.
But...This article that you posted, is from the manager of Andorra Solutions

And this man confirmed the 2% CIT is still there!
Allthough they are no real lawyers I think i will work with them. really pro's.
But okay, time will tell.

 

[mAzzy]

What will it cost you to consult to verify this claim and others ? Maybe 200 €

https://valentimarti.com

Advocats Andorra. Aleix & BP Economistes fiscalitat societats

Advocats Andorra Aleix & BP Économistes fiscalitat economistes. Fiscalitat, Societats i residencia, civilmercantil successions inversió ☎ +376.820.020

advocats-andorra.com

Also regarding the sourcing of incorporation + residency, in between extremes of gestorias and affordable lawyers, there is sometimes a gap of up to 5 folds in costs, for no more or less competency, depending on the specifics you need to address. Shop well

 

[romalo]

hi mAzzy, the other (real) lawyer already confirmed, I posted that little days ago.
I'm in the process now, I'll try to update here in few weeks or months. Let's see, I'm sceptic like you!

More good news:
ARIVAL.com APPROVED our PANAMA company!!!
Expensive bank? yes, not the opening but the rest yes.

https://arival.com/pricing

So after 200 hours of work I can now finally confirm that it is not true what people say that it is impossible to open "bank" account for Panama.
Bankera
Wittix
Arival
Accept Panama. Arival approved for free no costs.

That's a great list of services that accept your business. Thank you for updating this thread that frequently.

The list is much longer with banks that rejected, I now end the topic now with only banks that work. Hope it helped you.

We now use Transferwise account based on other company in Colombia, with almost the same company name as the Panama company.
Transferwise is super simple and no CRS.
So our clients get an invoice from Panama, with payment details Belgium IBAN. Then when we receive the money we send it to Panama.

Maybe not fully legal but the best method.

My tax lawyer said that as long as invoice is correct and legal, and the money ends in the Panama bank account, the only one who can make a problem is transferwise.
But they can close the account, no more.
There is no tax evasion, and...
Transferwise is no real Bank where you long-term store the money which you have to report to tax-government, u just use it as passthrough.
so no issue with Colombia or Panama government.

 

[Fred]

hi mAzzy, the other (real) lawyer already confirmed, I posted that little days ago.
I'm in the process now, I'll try to update here in few weeks or months. Let's see, I'm sceptic like you!

More good news:
ARIVAL.com APPROVED our PANAMA company!!!
Expensive bank? yes, not the opening but the rest yes.

https://arival.com/pricing

So after 200 hours of work I can now finally confirm that it is not true what people say that it is impossible to open "bank" account for Panama.
Bankera
Wittix
Arival
Accept Panama. Arival approved for free no costs.


The list is much longer with banks that rejected, I now end the topic now with only banks that work. Hope it helped you.

We now use Transferwise account based on other company in Colombia, with almost the same company name as the Panama company.
Transferwise is super simple and no CRS.
So our clients get an invoice from Panama, with payment details Belgium IBAN. Then when we receive the money we send it to Panama.

Maybe not fully legal but the best method.

My tax lawyer said that as long as invoice is correct and legal, and the money ends in the Panama bank account, the only one who can make a problem is transferwise.
But they can close the account, no more.
There is no tax evasion, and...
Transferwise is no real Bank where you long-term store the money which you have to report to tax-government, u just use it as passthrough.
so no issue with Colombia or Panama government.

These are no banks but Financial Institutions - they are limited in there options of receiving funds in the name of the company and - depending on how desperate they are - charge you everything between a leg and arm or only a leg.

Arival is some kind of Mercury.

It's right when people claim it's close to impossible to get a decent reliable retail bank account for a Panama Company.

 

[bizniz]

hi mAzzy, the other (real) lawyer already confirmed, I posted that little days ago.
I'm in the process now, I'll try to update here in few weeks or months. Let's see, I'm sceptic like you!

More good news:
ARIVAL.com APPROVED our PANAMA company!!!

What do Arival's wire instructions look like? Is it direct or via some EMI?

Expensive bank? yes, not the opening but the rest yes.

https://arival.com/pricing

So after 200 hours of work I can now finally confirm that it is not true what people say that it is impossible to open "bank" account for Panama.
Bankera
Wittix
Arival
Accept Panama. Arival approved for free no costs.

Any reason why you did not open an account in Panama itself?

The list is much longer with banks that rejected, I now end the topic now with only banks that work. Hope it helped you.

We now use Transferwise account based on other company in Colombia, with almost the same company name as the Panama company.
Transferwise is super simple and no CRS.
So our clients get an invoice from Panama, with payment details Belgium IBAN. Then when we receive the money we send it to Panama.

Maybe not fully legal but the best method.

Transerwise would likely close the account after you start acivity.

My tax lawyer said that as long as invoice is correct and legal, and the money ends in the Panama bank account, the only one who can make a problem is transferwise.
But they can close the account, no more.
There is no tax evasion, and...
Transferwise is no real Bank where you long-term store the money which you have to report to tax-government, u just use it as passthrough.
so no issue with Colombia or Panama government.

This is probably true. But they will close the account which is a big hassle if you have transfers in transit etc.

 

[romalo]

Yes I totally agree, but maybe this info helps you:

Well with Revolut we have 3 years experience. Now they went from EMI to bank. Zero difference, you wont notice any difference.
yeah your money is protected if a bank goes bankrupt blabla. But only untill 100k or so, so that wont make a difference (in my case)

My advice would always be to have a Panama bank account for the big money, and EMI's to collect the payments.
I think Panam is one of the most save places in the world to keep your money. I have 6 Panama bank accounts. Old fashioned **** banks and also crazy expensive. EMI's are 100x more user friendly.

Arival is wayyy to expensive like most of them. But swiss and panama banks are simular.

I believe Bankera is the big guy of these 3, the rest is small.

Stripe we had 3 checks now. They dont care we use Panama invoice data. We had approval black on white. No CRS, just like paysera and Wise.(see other topic)

Stepping over to Andorra as we speak, seems much more interesting then running business in Panama. Panama has super easy accountancy though.
Meanwhile using Transferwise & stripe to collect and send from transferwise to Panama. Works super easy. Matter of minutes for the money arrives.

We opened a few Wise accounts. Easy as hell. Received a payment of 21k no questions asked untill now.
And even if they asks documents like invoices, just supply them?! or make them. With Revolut always worked and they are worlds most horrible(see reddit etc)
Andorra banks are crazy expensive as well, good for savings but not for payment collection, So EMI's is still the way to go for collecting payments I think...

These are no banks but Financial Institutions - they are limited in there options of receiving funds in the name of the company and - depending on how desperate they are - charge you everything between a leg and arm or only a leg.

Arival is some kind of Mercury.

It's right when people claim it's close to impossible to get a decent reliable retail bank account for a Panama Company.

Yeah Wise seems the best to receive in the company name, no weird bank names like with Arival, but just the real company name.
Thx to this forum, read/found good stuff about Wise. I never realised they became so advanced in the last years. (and Much complaints like with everybody these days.)

 

[romalo]

Now using Payoneer. I even have a personal IBAN!
It was way more easy then opening a bank accounts in Panama. That's slow and dramatic and no IBAN.

Took me about 200 hours research, mostly for kyc.
I hope it helps some people here. Payoneer is the way to go...

 

[Silvio]

Transerwise would likely close the account after you start acivity.

Agree and even if not, I would not post here in a public forum how you trick TransferWise and with such obvious details, will take them 2 minutes to find your company and close.

 

[Jerry1911]

This whole thread should be moved to MG in my opinion.

 

[romalo]

Works perfectly with Wise, no problem. 80k/month.
Why would they care? it's not of their business.
Nothing illigal. We register the payments as a loan and pay back of the loan directly from the client, all put in a simple contract. Therefore Good tax lawyer is half of the work.
Ask your lawyer, he can explain you how to use bank accounts from other companies or private accounts.

The only REAL problem with Wise which you don't read here is that EUR payments out of Europe are limited to 200.000/year. Per valuta.
Thats nothing.

Therfore wise is useless to us. Only to collect its much better because it's super fast incoming instant Sepa's.
Bankera and Payoneer are slower. Testing a lot now. Revolut and Wise are quick. Will start another topic about this later on.

 

[lostguy]

There is a bank in the Bahamas that will take you, but it needs an introduction.

there are no bank in bermuda