CRS after changing countries

[trek]

Hi, I've been living in Portugal for the past few years, made some money, and now considering moving to my home country (within the EU).

I'm considering a few options concerning CRS and fiscal residence:

1. NOT changing my address on financial institutions and NOT telling Portugal I'll be leaving. The idea is that all CRS info goes to the Portuguese taxman and stays there. My home country will not have a clue about my assets (provided I've understood well how CRS works) which I can wait a few years to disclose.
2. NOT changing my address on financial institutions and telling Portugal I'll be leaving. Would Portugal forward all CRS info to my new country in this case?
3. Changing my address on financial institutions and telling Portugal I'll be leaving. I'm considering this option as well, although I will likely face an investigation and will have to spend a lot of time gathering information to justify my net worth increase.

Do you see any problems with #1 or #2?

 

[Sols]

Don't live in a place whose tax laws you aren't comfortable with.

Yes, you can get away with it (for a while), by not telling anyone you left or not telling the bank you've left. But your entire life is dependent on that lie never being questioned in much detail. There are a lot of little ways that mismatching information about your place of residence can reach people you don't want should know.

If you have already earned a significant wealth but want to move back to your home country, you can probably take your wealth with you back without paying taxes. Just make sure you have copies of your tax return and all such documentation, in case there is an inquiry in the future. But when you move back to your home country, comply with the local tax laws there.

Enforcement of tax laws is only going to get tougher and stricter in the future. I'd recommend planning for that future, rather than rely on a lack of enforcement while committing intra-EU tax evasion.

 

[trek]

Thank you for your answer. I think I was not clear in my initial post. In all three listed options, I meant to tell my new country that I'll start to be a tax resident there. The question was about the implications of not declaring this move in Portugal for CRS purposes (so my assets in some financial institutions do not leak).

 

[Sols]

The question was about the implications of not declaring this move in Portugal for CRS purposes (so my assets in some financial institutions do not leak).

As long as the income you earned while resident in Portugal was fully declared on your tax returns, why are you worried about a leak? Under most normal circumstances, you wouldn't be taxed again on income already earned and taxed (even if taxed at a zero rate). There may be some minor overlap to consider for the year when you do move as dual or partial tax residence may occur, but that's it.

If your concern is privacy rather than tax, then the points from my previous post remains. The data is at risk of leaking or being questioned. You'd essentially have to leave that money there and never move it, at least not in any meaningful quantities, to your home country.

So the feasibility depends on size of wealth and how you want to use it after you move.

 

[trek]

What you say makes total sense.

 

[Radko]

There are no problems leaving everything as it is in Portugal, but would be good that you visit Portugal once a year just to "smell the air" (you won't be the first person to do that, I guarantee you that.)
If you don't want to take your hard earned money with you to a new EU country, and if you eventually want to leave the Portugal situation, then you can either get residency in Dubai (you only need to visit Dubai for 24 hours every 6 months if I'm not mistaken, which is easy) or you take your money to a none CRS country

 

[kkein]

AFAIK if you are moving from a EU country to a EU country, the law states that it's the taxman's burden to prove you have been breaking the 180days rule. Meaning that if you pay cash and lay low, you can probably get away with it quite easily.
Of course in the long run this might prove to be difficult (soon or late you'll need to leave traces, think f.ex., healthcare).
If you have some loose strings to tighten I think this might work for a few years.

 

[trek]

To be clear, I won't be hiding when I move. I will register myself as a tax resident and pay my taxes.

However, I was thinking of not updating the address on some banks/brokers, so the CRS info still goes to my previous country (Portugal).
The question I have is what happens to the CRS info. Will Portugal forward the CRS info to my new country if I unregister myself from being a tax resident in Portugal?

 

[Radko]

To be clear, I won't be hiding when I move. I will register myself as a tax resident and pay my taxes.

However, I was thinking of not updating the address on some banks/brokers, so the CRS info still goes to my previous country (Portugal).
The question I have is what happens to the CRS info. Will Portugal forward the CRS info to my new country if I unregister myself from being a tax resident in Portugal?

If you unregister yourself from Portugal, then they will report every account you have in Portugal to your new country via the CRS.
So if you do not want that to happen, just keep pretending that you are living in Portugal, even if you will be living somewhere else, as I said before, plenty of people are doing this, as they are registered under the NHR program in Portugal, but in reality they are spending 99.9% of the time somewhere else.

 

[trek]

If you unregister yourself from Portugal, then they will report every account you have in Portugal to your new country via the CRS.

OK, this is what I wanted to know –that Portugal will report every account I have either in Portugal or abroad (with my Portuguese address) to my new country.

 

[Radko]

OK, this is what I wanted to know –that Portugal will report every account I have either in Portugal or abroad (with my Portuguese address) to my new country.

You are confusing things when there is no need.
1) If you keep an address in Portugal you can keep all the bank accounts you have in Portugal and they will NOT report you anywhere.
2)If you do not keep an address in Portugal, meaning that you unregister from Portugal, then those accounts that you have in Portugal will eventually ask you to update your address, and that's when you'll have to tell them that you are no longer living there, then you can either give them the new address in your new home, wherever that is, in that case they will report you, or you can then close the account and move the funds somewhere else.
I hope that makes sense, so try to keep an address in Portugal if you want to keep the accounts in Portugal

 

[trek]

From what you say, it all boils down to what I tell the banks/brokers.

This is how I thought things worked:

• Let's say I have an account with a foreign broker (e.g., Interactive Brokers). The account has my Portuguese residence address.
• I move to a new country but don't update my address in Interactive Brokers.
• Interactive Brokers sends CRS info to Portugal.
• Portugal receives the CRS info. If I have unregistered myself from being a Portuguese tax resident, Portugal then forwards the CRS info to my new country.

Am I right?

 

[Radko]

Ok, I also have an account with IBKR, so I know how they work.
If you want to do things completely by the law, the moment you unregister yourself from Portugal and you move somewhere else, you should also tell IBKR that you have moved to another country, that's if you want to do things 100% by the book.
However, IF you keep an address in Portugal, it can be a place that you rent, or it can be a friend's home that allows you to use his home address, then you can keep all your bank accounts in Portugal as well as your Interactive Brokers account with that address in Portugal, if you do this, then they will not report you to any other country, but as soon as you tell them that you have moved out of the country, or if they find out that you are not living in Portugal anymore, then those accounts that you have in Portugal will be reported to your new home and Interactive Brokers will also report you directly to your new country of residency.
It's not that IBKR reports you to Portugal and then Portugal reports you to wherever you are living now, you should by law tell them both, the Portuguese banks and Interactive Brokers, that you have moved to another country, but as I said, there are lots of people, especially those registered in Portugal under the NHR, that keep an address in Portugal so everything, meaning every bank account, or every broker account that they have is only reported to Portugal tax authorities and nowhere else, even though those people are not spending time in Portugal, they are living in other countries, I have a few friends doing that at the moment.
I hope I'm not making things more confusing, it pretty straight forward.
There are many people that have an Interactive Brokers account and they have given an address for reporting purposes that it is not where they are living most of their time (a lot of people have for example their residency in Dubai, so their Interactive Brokers account is only reported to Dubai, even though those people are living most of the time in another country.)

 

[trek]

I understand now. IBKR will report directly to my new country if they find out or if there is an address change, and this is not something that the Portuguese authorities will forward to my new country.

Everything is clear now. Thanks for the great answer!

 

[Radko]

I understand now. IBKR will report directly to my new country if they find out or if there is an address change, and this is not something that the Portuguese authorities will forward to my new country.

Everything is clear now. Thanks for the great answer!

No problem, you are more than welcome, enjoy!

 

[zzzzzz]

AFAIK if you are moving from a EU country to a EU country, the law states that it's the taxman's burden to prove you have been breaking the 180days rule. Meaning that if you pay cash and lay low, you can probably get away with it quite easily.
Of course in the long run this might prove to be difficult (soon or late you'll need to leave traces, think f.ex., healthcare).
If you have some loose strings to tighten I think this might work for a few years.

Some EU countries have the opposite laws - taxman can question you and it's your responsibility to prove them, not theirs.

 

[tolstoy]

To be clear, I won't be hiding when I move. I will register myself as a tax resident and pay my taxes.

However, I was thinking of not updating the address on some banks/brokers, so the CRS info still goes to my previous country (Portugal).
The question I have is what happens to the CRS info. Will Portugal forward the CRS info to my new country if I unregister myself from being a tax resident in Portugal?

Cash out all your money from the banks this way: buy services from a Seychelles company (claim them as expenses )and tell them to send you the crypto. close those bank accounts after that. Once the accounts are closed nobody is going to bother you.

 

[pixbix]

Hi, I've been living in Portugal for the past few years, made some money, and now considering moving to my home country (within the EU).

I'm considering a few options concerning CRS and fiscal residence:

1. NOT changing my address on financial institutions and NOT telling Portugal I'll be leaving. The idea is that all CRS info goes to the Portuguese taxman and stays there. My home country will not have a clue about my assets (provided I've understood well how CRS works) which I can wait a few years to disclose.
2. NOT changing my address on financial institutions and telling Portugal I'll be leaving. Would Portugal forward all CRS info to my new country in this case?
3. Changing my address on financial institutions and telling Portugal I'll be leaving. I'm considering this option as well, although I will likely face an investigation and will have to spend a lot of time gathering information to justify my net worth increase.

Do you see any problems with #1 or #2?

I would just buy one of those 1000-3000 EURO homes in the middle of fuxxx nowhere in Portugal and i would keep renewing my ID )
Or try to get an ID card same way those Brazilian chicks do it. They somehow sleep 4-6 girls in one room. So 20-30 girls in the same house/apartament... lamo ...geez

Do 1. Even if they will ever find you out, you can just say you planned to return just for a few years in your home country to fix some things. maybe some people you care about are old and need help , or you want to do some studies, including learning a new language.
Remember there is no law to punish you for not renewing the address on your bank account . You can argue you just let it like it is for when you return in Portugal. Backup with some true stories if you are worried so much , like "you are back in your native country X to learn russian, it's hard for you to learn russian in a foreign language you also don't speak well".

 

[trek]

Thanks, pixbix!

Yeah, it seems not updating the address on bank accounts is not a big deal.

Does anybody know what happens if Portugal receives CRS info once I'm not living there anymore? Do they forward the info to the country I told them I moving to? Do they let the bank know that they should request me to update my address?

 

[pixbix]

Thanks, pixbix!

Yeah, it seems not updating the address on bank accounts is not a big deal.

Does anybody know what happens if Portugal receives CRS info once I'm not living there anymore? Do they forward the info to the country I told them I moving to? Do they let the bank know that they should request me to update my address?

Nothing if they think you are still living there. Even if you left, they will not know where you are currently located. So they will do nothing. This is why is better to not tell them. But try to have an address, where if they send you a letter you can receive it.

People are usually not paying taxes in Portugal. They are cool people. In small cities if you are white foreign and you drive drunk police will usually take you into their car to give you a free ride home. no arrest. no fines, nothing. If you search Google you will see a lot of people "getting away with it" in Portugal. Like they create a company in Company in HONG then pay 0% in Portugal residence, even Hong Kong is excluded. In Portugal you can play with fire. Unployment rate is very high , normal people are looking for a job for 6 months, so nobody will usually give a sxxx as they all do untaxed side jobs. If you were there, you would see most people won't give you a recipe, like the dentists, taxi drivers,etc.


Also keep in mind if your BANK IS IN PORTUGAL, they will not do CRS reporting. CRS reporting is only for jurisdictions, like if you a bank account in Romania they will report you Portugal.