How would one go about importing gold bars or coins or whatever else??? into the EU from UAE or HK without having to declare it and at the same time stay legal / under 10k reporting and so on via flight / something else?
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Import Gold into the EU
- Thread starter jermird
- Start date
Isn't doable with regular coins or investment grade bullion.
Legal Tender coins is probably the best tool for the problem you're trying to solve. It gives you plausible deniability and an excuse to not declare.
Ex with LT:
1. Carry 399x of 1 oz LT gold coins of 25€ face value each.
2. You're carrying ~€700K at the spot price, but only €9975 of cash equivalent at the face value which puts you just under the 10K reporting threshold.
It's a slippery slope. Not every toll bueraucrat will give you a warm nod of agreement.
If you can explain the mission in more detail, I can give more actionable advice to lower your risks. Are you moving gold to EU for arbitrage? Are you moving your own wealth? Washing for clients? Each case is very different.
Legal Tender coins is probably the best tool for the problem you're trying to solve. It gives you plausible deniability and an excuse to not declare.
Ex with LT:
1. Carry 399x of 1 oz LT gold coins of 25€ face value each.
2. You're carrying ~€700K at the spot price, but only €9975 of cash equivalent at the face value which puts you just under the 10K reporting threshold.
It's a slippery slope. Not every toll bueraucrat will give you a warm nod of agreement.
If you can explain the mission in more detail, I can give more actionable advice to lower your risks. Are you moving gold to EU for arbitrage? Are you moving your own wealth? Washing for clients? Each case is very different.
Why would you want to import gold into the EU? People in EU are looking to buy and hold gold outside the EU....lol. Last place I would want to keep gold is in EU.
That won't work.
The value of the spot price must be less than 10.000 Euro, otherwise you have to declare it.
The face value does not count for the threshold.
Yeah i think i have read somewhere that the face value is irrelevant in terms of import / customs and the actual spot price value always counts for the 10k.
@MarieManila: Gold however is different i think in that it in theory has to be declared even with the value is <10k to gain VAT exemption (in case they find it of course...)?
As for EU yes that can be argued against / for.
This is about private asset movement without trails.
Guess selling the BTC for cash on the street is the better way in general.
@MarieManila: Gold however is different i think in that it in theory has to be declared even with the value is <10k to gain VAT exemption (in case they find it of course...)?
As for EU yes that can be argued against / for.
This is about private asset movement without trails.
Guess selling the BTC for cash on the street is the better way in general.
Sell the BTC for cash, the demand for cash swap is massive right now. UAE there is buyers a plenty also in Europe.
@Marie Manila
I suppose that's what you're basing your opinion on?
Under:
- Not much to contest. All popular LT gold coins are higher than 90% in gold content and thus subject to Article 2 of 2018/1672 (Article 2 defines "cash.")
- However, the very key detail is that the regulation is not presently in force! It will be from June 3 2021.
The present EU-level regulation, 1889/2005, does not define any kind of gold as cash and thus it's up to individual member states. Relevant laws presently depend on where you land.
1. Solution (works in practice today):
Pick the loosest hole among the 27 for the initial LT coin import. And then move the gold where you like by car/bus/train/ferry under freedom of movement rules bypassing any further tolls (which may refer to a stricter national legislation)
2. Future solution (3 June 2021 and onwards):
Will be tough. I haven't given much tough yet, but I still see potential in LT coins. If not a solution to rely on, then at least some ground for a court case if the LT coins are detained/confiscated.
Article 2 of 2018/1672 catches LT coins as both: "currency" and "highly-liquid store of value" - but
2.1. where does it say that the latter takes precedence over the former if the coins are made of valuable metals such as gold?
2.2. or where does it say that the higher value must be assumed if two or more sub-categories of "cash" are triggered, as is the case with LT gold coins? It doesn't.
So even in 2021, as per regulation of 2018/1672, I'm given a choice to choose if I'm carrying €9975 of cash under the statutes of "currency" or the much higher number resulting from "highly liquid store of value."
Dear EU...Please fix your FATF/AML regulations and make it a little harder for us.
I suppose that's what you're basing your opinion on?
Under:
- Not much to contest. All popular LT gold coins are higher than 90% in gold content and thus subject to Article 2 of 2018/1672 (Article 2 defines "cash.")
- However, the very key detail is that the regulation is not presently in force! It will be from June 3 2021.
The present EU-level regulation, 1889/2005, does not define any kind of gold as cash and thus it's up to individual member states. Relevant laws presently depend on where you land.
1. Solution (works in practice today):
Pick the loosest hole among the 27 for the initial LT coin import. And then move the gold where you like by car/bus/train/ferry under freedom of movement rules bypassing any further tolls (which may refer to a stricter national legislation)
2. Future solution (3 June 2021 and onwards):
Will be tough. I haven't given much tough yet, but I still see potential in LT coins. If not a solution to rely on, then at least some ground for a court case if the LT coins are detained/confiscated.
Article 2 of 2018/1672 catches LT coins as both: "currency" and "highly-liquid store of value" - but
2.1. where does it say that the latter takes precedence over the former if the coins are made of valuable metals such as gold?
2.2. or where does it say that the higher value must be assumed if two or more sub-categories of "cash" are triggered, as is the case with LT gold coins? It doesn't.
So even in 2021, as per regulation of 2018/1672, I'm given a choice to choose if I'm carrying €9975 of cash under the statutes of "currency" or the much higher number resulting from "highly liquid store of value."
Dear EU...Please fix your FATF/AML regulations and make it a little harder for us.
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How so if you exchange in person? Although i really dont like the whole exchange in person thing. Im sure pictures are being taken, records kept etc. Apart from the whole counterfeit, safe way back etc issue.
Well EU prefered or anything that is not 30h of flights...
Not in countries that are tax free.
Your best bet is to exchange for cash and set up an account in a UAE.
Exactly. Records are kept for god knows how long on LocalBitcoins. And your KYC is linked to your wallet.
I wouldn't put my own ID nowhere near that fake p2p platform.
Despite a higher markup, even BTC ATMs are a superior choice. If you got patience, visit a few ATMs every day and cash in/out exactly below the KYC verification limit. Then your only concern is the camera/photo trace.
How would he spend from that account with a peace of mind in the EU? And there are CRS conerns...
These concerns are relevant even for simple storage.
Requires advanced residency planning/misleading to make a good ride out of it.
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how much do you want to buy in a physical store? and how far are you from say Germany?
Exactly. Records are kept for god knows how long on LocalBitcoins. And your KYC is linked to your wallet.
I wouldn't put my own ID nowhere near that fake p2p platform.
Despite a higher markup, even BTC ATMs are a superior choice. If you got patience, visit a few ATMs every day and cash in/out exactly below the KYC verification limit. Then your only concern is the camera/photo trace.
How would he spend from that account with a peace of mind in the EU? And there are CRS conerns...
These concerns are relevant even for simple storage.
Requires advanced residency planning/misleading to make a good ride out of it.
Not at all.
Cash transactions are normal in Dubai. My business partner bought his car from the dealership for 400K AED which is about 100K USD after selling his BTC in February. Carrying large amounts and transacting in such in the UAE is normal.
To give you an example I have miners that bring gold and diamonds to the UAE from South America and Africa. They declare the items at customs and pay $100 for import certificate. They sell the gold to a refinery who will pay you cash. When you leave the country you declare what you sold against you import certificate and you are free to go.
The cash when you land at the other side is your problem. Most airports in Africa are too busy looking for electronics to charge you import duty.
@CaptK
Now that's a little different. Planning ahead and getting a source of funds document like that is a solid idea. Doesn't help with remaining undeclared, but helps with wealth import and deposit challenges in the EU further down the road.
I was assuming your reference to account was a reference to a conventional bank account.
Now that's a little different. Planning ahead and getting a source of funds document like that is a solid idea. Doesn't help with remaining undeclared, but helps with wealth import and deposit challenges in the EU further down the road.
I was assuming your reference to account was a reference to a conventional bank account.
about 10-20k monthly for 12-24 months depends on which route the person in question takes at the end
lets consider regular stopovers on flights in germany
BTC is better. Identify a high value translator on local bitcoins who has no ties in Europe or USA.
Do a small translation in person. If a person looks trustable request more cash translation which are off local bitcoins using offline wallets
Do a small translation in person. If a person looks trustable request more cash translation which are off local bitcoins using offline wallets
Import of Gold into EU is not as bad as someone can think:
VAT rate for gold with purity 900/1000 and more: 0 %
Customs duties: 0 %
You just have to declare it. And nothing more. If you have a proper documentation about where and for how much you bought it and about actual ownership, it is easy and straightforward process. 2 pages short form in any EU airport.
Or, you can do one thing, which is not legal but many people do it:
You can fly from UAE to Switzerland. Switzerland does not have any legal requirement to report gold when entering a country. Switzerland is not member of EU, but is member of Schengen zone. So the reality is, there are no customs or immigration controls in the most of borders between Switzerland and neighbouring countries. There are just some controls from time to time on a highway border crossing. But there are so many places where you can enter EU from Switzerland without any control...
VAT rate for gold with purity 900/1000 and more: 0 %
Customs duties: 0 %
You just have to declare it. And nothing more. If you have a proper documentation about where and for how much you bought it and about actual ownership, it is easy and straightforward process. 2 pages short form in any EU airport.
Or, you can do one thing, which is not legal but many people do it:
You can fly from UAE to Switzerland. Switzerland does not have any legal requirement to report gold when entering a country. Switzerland is not member of EU, but is member of Schengen zone. So the reality is, there are no customs or immigration controls in the most of borders between Switzerland and neighbouring countries. There are just some controls from time to time on a highway border crossing. But there are so many places where you can enter EU from Switzerland without any control...
Yes many do fly via Dubai to Switzerland for the little extra they can achieve over there.
Its easier to just pay the $100 at UAE customs to get an import certificate, subject to having all the necessary documents for clearance.
The benefit in doing that is that when you leave the UAE you can carry physical cash when leaving.
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