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Question Is there anything good that can be done in Italy or is best avoided?

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spagetifressa

New member
Not really a helpful comment without an explanation. Many people succeed where other people fail.
I don't really consider AirBnb an investment at al.. It's more a way to make some money on the side if you have spare rooms. If one really wants to go into the hospitality sector (which is not my case) there are better ways to make a profit out of it, such as you do your own marketing, you build your own website, etc.

I have used AirBnb in the past. It gives the idea of something cheap and amateurish.

Plus the idea of having drunken tourists pissing and puking around my house puts me off big time.
 

spagetifressa

New member
many men are into that!
EDIT: I know also many women into that too.
Yes I know that many are into that. Just minding after these people is not for me. What I expect from running a business is make money, not socialising with drunken tourists. I've done it in my younger years and now I have enough.
 

Golden Fleece

Active Member
I have used AirBnb in the past. It gives the idea of something cheap and amateurish.
I use AirBNB apartments whenever I travel. I loathe hotels -- and AirBNB apartments provide much more value for the money than a hotel room. If you rent from a Super Host or someone with great reviews, it is far from cheap and amateurish.

As a business model, many investors have success with AirBNB In fact, if you have three or four units in an area, you can live for free by moving into whichever unit is not currently rented. Admittedly, that suitcase shuffle is definitely a younger man's game, for sure.
 
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maxmmm

Mentor Group Gold
If anybody is interested in AirBnb btw, it's best to actually check what people in your area are making from AirBnb... then you can decide if it's worth the hassle:

You can see what seasons are the best, how much you make on average in good\bad times and how much competition you have. Can even spy on particular competitors to see how booked they are and see if you can copy whatever specific features they offer (Netflix, etc). Super useful to know before you go into that.

Imho Airbnb provides a lot more value than hotels usually and the rooms\services are better and cheaper, also in almost all cases you can message hosts directly and get some extra discount (or just pay them in cash after staying officially just for a few days and save on the commission). Plenty of people make good money and if you take into account all the hassle that goes into managing\licensing brand\regulation\salaries\cleaning in hotels, AirBnb is a no brainer. But of course it all depends on your location.
 

azb1

Mentor Group Gold
If anybody is interested in AirBnb btw, it's best to actually check what people in your area are making from AirBnb... then you can decide if it's worth the hassle:

You can see what seasons are the best, how much you make on average in good\bad times and how much competition you have. Can even spy on particular competitors to see how booked they are and see if you can copy whatever specific features they offer (Netflix, etc). Super useful to know before you go into that.

Imho Airbnb provides a lot more value than hotels usually and the rooms\services are better and cheaper, also in almost all cases you can message hosts directly and get some extra discount (or just pay them in cash after staying officially just for a few days and save on the commission). Plenty of people make good money and if you take into account all the hassle that goes into managing\licensing brand\regulation\salaries\cleaning in hotels, AirBnb is a no brainer. But of course it all depends on your location.
Thanks for sharing. It is very helpful.
Do not know this type of website exists.
 

challenge

Trusted
hotels any day of the week for me. but I know there are incentives for turning old houses into airbnbs and people leverages that.
but I agree with @spagetifressa, renting/sharing/tenants it is a big pain in the ass if it's not at scale.
~~~
I've got this one from a friends chat, it's LONG, based on a chat between a few italian friends, I think it's better than an Doing Business report, tweaked and fixed as far I could. He allowed me to post it here, forgive grammar, he doesn't care when he's not paid for and me neither.
But it should give you a good picture :)
~~~
  • Mafia is not the biggest issue for your business. Sure it's a big issue nationwide and probably a big cause too, but what do I mean is that you'll never be directly hit by them, unless you open a street-facing business close to one of their homes... like central naples, calabria, parts of sicily. e.g. there are neighborhoods in Naples where police called it a day and doesn't plan to enter anytime soon...
    If you open a shop in those areas, sooner or later someone will come to your door, to ask your monthly fees for the local family "protection"... and if you don't pay, your shiny shop either goes BOOM or fire.
    Outside of those zones (aka the other 90% of italy) they work smarter/quietly: bribery, drug selling, prostitution, refugee/immigration centers, and anywhere there's public money to grab. So they'll win bids/tenders by corrupting public employees and threatening their competitors, that kind of things.
    that's why roads are shit.

    A TYPICAL ITALIAN ROAD CONSTRUCTION SITE, "supervised by mafia", till a few years ago (now rules are tighter, they don't do this explicit anymore but pretty sure it's still happening):
    Mafia wins the national tender bid "somehow" using someone legit as a nominee, they then contract a friendly local business that has to build the road very cheaply, because they also have to pay back a big fee to the mafia. So they skimp on materials, quality, then money ends (they do fraudulent bankruptcy), and the construction site stops half way...
    investigations begin, after years only a small fish ("nominee") will be arrested, the state issues a new tender to complete the road, other money will be required as it's nearly impossible to get the old money back.
    The first part of the road will last 10 years as it was poorly built. When the second part will be completed, 10 years later, the first part will be already in poor shape, tarmac cracked etc (never used) and has to be rebuilt... new tender, "new company", "new people", "new bankruptcy". Wash, rinse, repeat, half job bankruptcy elsewhere.
    Everything ran like this for decades and it was such a joke.
    They had/have men in politics, police, military, businesses, local counties, ministries, religion etc
    Judges/police that investigated deeply such things were either killed or got serious family life threats and moved away or tamed it down.
    Also mafia is global now, they focus towards much bigger international markets. They've got plenty of money, no need to do the old dirty stuff. They run clean businesses too now with the laundered money. They've got ties everywhere, in every country. Any huge infrastructure anywhere in europe, you can bet a lil share of it is going to mafia.
  • Even when there's no mafia affiliation, there are similar circumstances: I agree on the masonic and nepotism comments, if you aren't in the right circles, especially when you work in the public sector, you don't get the info you need in time, there's always that mysterious one ahead of you in every public tendering, you don't get help/aka "the push" in italian. You don't get hired easily in some public places, even if you're fully qualified for the job, unless you know this or that guy and he pushes you.
    Italians are like Brits on some aspects: they complain a lot about everything, but if you go check, there's a pretty good chance the more noisy ones are first taking advantage of shortcuts.
  • The big issue in Italy is the economy: is really down the shitter. Apart from the big international businesses/industries, the whole country is floating pretty much on parents savings, financing and state benefits/pensions.
    The latest populist gov gave benefits to all and they say by doing that they "ended poverty".
    It's easy to get 700/1000€ in benefits per month now. The entry level salaries were around 1000€ or lower = people don't want to work anymore, they now prefer the benefits... or they work off the books and gets best of both worlds. There are millions on benefits, it's impossible to check them all thoroughly.
    The same gov also hired thousands of part time job-centers employees, and paid them 2k/month for 2 years for doing literally nothing, as they didn't even had offices nor computers nor a working infrastructure, nor the lists of unemployed people.
    Everyone knows the boat is sinking, many are on "panic mode": no more children, the population age is very old, taking no risks either financially nor in new businesses, saving more, less money going around, zero innovation, no real innovative startups survive, unless they are BS backed by eu/govt etc
    After the euro onset and its strong exchange rate against the old lira, inflation, debt, huge public spending in the '80s and now budget cuts to counter that, taxes are always on the rise and services always poorer. The middle class got way poorer than it was.
    And many of them, especially the private employees and sole traders, they risk to get even poorer when they'll reach retirement age.
    It's like the rich get richer, the middle gets crushed down close to the poor.
    Just as a reminder, in 2020 300k small businesses were dissolved.

    let me write a few more issues:

  • one could say that the italian constitution has been written by communists after the second world war. it pretty much says that the state must give you everything. Plenty of champagne socialists around. Everything is balanced and counterbalanced... so many entities, so many agencies, so many people, too much of everything. They are experts on talking and eventually changing everything to change nothing. There's no long term strategy, it's like everyone is there for the salary. It's impossible to change things as they would be unconstitutional, and the big share of low income voters would never vote to change the constitution.
  • justice. criminal trials last around 3 years on average, civil lawsuits last up to 6 years or even more. Now imagine if someone sues you or vice versa...
    If a thief held you at gunpoint inside your house and you hit him, he falls on the ground and gets badly hurt, he'll get no jail (probably just a few days in jail then house arrests). Then he can also sue you for his damages... and the state will pay his lawyer too, as he doesn't have an "official" income. Also he will get state benefits for life if ends up disabled. So you end up being f*cked twice...
  • crime pays in Italy. petty crimes are very diffuse in the cities, pickpockets/bag/watch/phone-snatchers in every tourist spot, villa robberies in the richest north areas happen frequently. If you'll see bars on windows even in some expensive villas, at least on ground floor, you now know why.
  • public sector. It's a giant money pit. Anything from schools, to military up to the parliament, everything revolves around Pareto's rule: out of ten people, there are like 2 really hard workers, the other 8 doing only god knows what and btw, where are they? managers turn a blind eye too, because if one tries to fix things, he'll be the only one against the flow and he'll be the only one held accountable, so it's anarchy.
    The majority have been hired in the past century by nepotism/direct connections/political affiliation and are utterly useless. Overpaid, their pension will be close to or greater than their salary is and, once they're in, it's nearly impossible to fire them by law. A good number of them are "hidden" inside ministry and govt palaces, away from the public, with super high salaries vs the private sector, doing nearly nothing all day long, for their entire life. Public tv (you're forced to pay it) is another fun place if you are into tracing employees family trees.
  • if you do B2B, be careful as many small businesses run on low cash flow (for tax reasons) and usually pay very late. I can only imagine now with covid,
  • customer support is shit, especially post-sales. they really make you feel the issue is yours. It's getting better but is still shit. You will find exceptions beyond any means, but on average is shit.
  • debt collection is very expensive as courts and lawyers are, so unless the amount is huge, you just hope and pray.
  • tax wedge is very high and toxic social unions. if you have to hire (and fire), god bless you! if you got a lazy/bad worker that's ruining your company culture, he'll go to the union and they'll piss you off to death in any way. Strikes, media. You can't fire it easily, easiest way is to pay him to walk away.
  • VAT is high and, as other taxes, you have to pay it in advance too. e.g. in december you'll pay the VAT for the next year based on current years one...
  • country is very traditional outside the big cities (i like it, every village has different food, still talk different dialects, but if you don't speak Italian everything is 10x harder, if you're black then it's like 50x).
  • no meritocracy. stagnant jobs market. you start working as waiter, you will end your life exactly like that, same title, only a little increase in salary during the whole career. Maybe you'll also work extra time off the books, so you'll pension will be shit too.
  • healthcare is "free", actually it's paid off income tax (19% of it iirc) but low income people says it's "free" as they don't pay any of it... When/where it works, it's ok they tell me. But it's another giant mafia money-pit... avoid the south. There's an hospital in calabria (ndrangheta mafia region) that has 1 billion debts and nobody knew/checked where the money went :eek:). the queues are huge for anything non life threatening (months for exams), and many still prefer to pay and go to the private clinics. Private healthcare is great and not that expensive and everything gets done quickly.
  • anything fun is surtaxed. the car taxes are already way higher than other european countries. On top of that, engines over 250bhp will pay a luxury surtax, and it gets quickly in the thousands for anything over 300bhp. if your house has a pool then it should go on an higher tax band. boats are taxed, airplanes, helicopters, all luxury taxes. It nearly killed all the luxury industries, luckily they converted to export to richer markets (UAE, China etc). tax on music, open air parties, there's even a tax if you fly the national flag either on a mast or from a balcony (140eur/year) e.g. hotels.
  • there's an economic military police that can stop you on the road (and will always stop supercars) and do background checks at their will, on income, business etc this on top of the tax agency
  • there are thousands of laws, millions of commas, nobody really follows them, it's impossible to. They are so complex that different lawyers/judges read them differently.
  • stimulus checks were embarrassing for businesses, unlike other countries. many entrepreneurs still got nothing. some got like 2k for a 200k revenue loss.
  • social envy is very strong, unless you're a football player or rockstar or TV star. Average thought about entrepreneurs,
    if rich/successful: "look at him, he's a tax evader, he's got rich stealing public money, oh I'm going to scratch his Ferrari", even knowing they guy is paying ~6k surtax each year on that car...
    if poor/bad entrepreneur "it's fine, good guy, we can be friends". Many rich people know this and keep their wealth inside their fences.
  • all of the above must be added to a lot of bureaucracy, every small thing is a paper nightmare. Either conflicting papers from multiple agency for a simple thing or, when they beg to be IT savvy, all you get is a non working wordpress website that crashes every time there's more than one people online. You'll learn every possible slur and swear quite fast because of this.
  • tax rates (including social contributions): it can get close to 60%. Also, you have to pay this year final down payment and at the same time next year's deposit (60%) in advance based on current year revenue... it's very easy to do mistakes and ending up without cash flow just for that reason. You can't do anything of this stuff alone, you need a good tax avoidance expert, a regular CPA just doesn't cut it. smi(&%
  • tax agency intimidating letters: we found an error on your (insert very old year here) tax accounts. it was 20€ error, but you never fixed it. Now you have to pay that, plus interests, plus fine, plus fees. Those 20 eur are now somehow 2500€. You go to their office and they scream at you, if there's not a lawyer with you. Then you read the news and you better pay now or god knows how they'll become 20k€ in a few years. Good people get scared and pay. Criminals don't even open the letters if they see it's from them, they own nothing on their name so they can't get anything off them.
    Also if you're a VIP and throw shit at them while also committing international tax crimes and your brother is a big influential politician or even ministry, then you can settle it all quickly at a very convenient rate...
the '80s were the golden era of Italy. After that it only got worse.
Those are the bad points, the good ones are the one everyone knows. Food, sun (not in Milan, it can get shittier than London there...), luxury stuff, parties, women, reckless driving/speeding and little chance of being caught(it is a plus right? :D), sardinian beaches, arts(fashion and the likes), coffee, the "your not going to jail" unless you really kill someone... if you are ruthless you'll profit there.

In Italy you can have everything starting from this and even better:

Spiaggia-del-Grande-Pevero-Costa-Smeralda-Sardinia-1024x683.jpg


to some of the ugliest and worst hoods in the world, it can get much worse than this:

9912988726_df5548d721_b.jpg


Actually as a spaniard that was born in a small village I understand you a lot

Spain and Italy are very similar on many things.
I lived in both and move frequently around.
Spaniards are more easy going, open minded and enjoy more life. Infrastructure is much better in Spain. Cities are cleaner in Spain. Many things are cheaper in Spain.
While Italy has more quality "on paper" (e.g. most UNESCO Heritage sites in the world), on average it's really badly handled and rotting away. And it's really a shame.
Many Italians are living it as a sinking ship, and that doesn't help.
I think Spaniards are in a better condition right now, even though they should know they'll be the next in line...
If I had really to pick a Mediterranean high tax country for living year round (and not rich enough for the non-dom regimes), I'd chose Spain over Italy, while it lasts. I'd place the business in the Canaries with the tax discount (ZEC, 4% CT and lower VAT) and maybe live in the summer months around murcia, valencia or thereabout.
Everyone I know that had a business in Italy and relocated it to the Canaries, they're as happy as they could be.

This unless you are UHNWI and really love italy.
In that case the italian non-dom is a gift(territorial taxation, 100k lump sum). the sardinian beaches, Tuscany wine yards, venezia gondolas are awaiting you.
You'll be welcomed and supported everywhere.
But know that's only about the income taxes, you'll have to pay capital gains if you don't have the correct setup. You'll also still have to pay all the luxury surtaxes. But they're nothing and when you have that kind of money, everything can be bypassed legally...
 

Cetme308win

offshore libertarian
Mentor Group Gold
was just sent this... 15 years!!! rof/% it seems to confirm the above
That was very common here in Spain as well lol

 

MichalS

New member
What you mention about corruption, poor healthcare, nepotism, everything going slow, lack of transparency and so on
Does it apply to northern wealthier part as well or only the south?
 

shikari

Active Member
Investing in Italy doesn't make any sense, especially buying houses as that's what's more under the radar of the tax authorities. I'm Italian, but resident in Dubai (fiscally) and Spain (where I have an address for the Italian Government). Living in Italy is doable ( I prefer Spain to Italy, but that's down to personal preference ) and of course it's much better than living in the UK, just don't try to do it legally. If you work remotely, just rent something without a contract and no one will ever bother you, don't open a bank account in Italy, don't make an italian SIM ( you can do a spanish one and it works like an italian one ) and just live under the radar. But if you do something official, like buying a house, you get yourself into troubles.
 

challenge

Trusted
I agree don't make any sense to invest in Italy, it's a money pit.
Your taxes aren't coming back at you as services, but they are for a big share going in someone else's pockets. Never forget about that.
Yes it's true the north is more fast paced and the rat race is strong. N is richer, more people so more ways to make money, so maybe you get a bit more "air" out of it.
But you are still feeding the beast with your taxes and only a small of it comes back.
Either be the mafia, lazy freeloaders on benefits, corrupted politicians/employees from the local council up to the president's palace. Oh BTW, the latter costs more than the white house yearly, enough said.

Mafia estimated extortion from businesses it's 160 mln per year, and the can launder them easily:

Over a million Italians earn a living from politics

Italian MPs twice as pricey as German MPs

Quirinal Palace costs over double Queen's royal residences, more than white house

Italian's quirinal palace = 240mln per year = 750 employees
USA white house = 130mln per year = 370 employees

that's only the president's palace. It's all like that, from the top down to the smallest village council.

from the above link:
"Public procurement in Italy accounts for around 10 % of GDP.
It is carried out by around 30 000 contracting agencies at all levels of the public administration.
At the national level, centralization occurs through Consip, the main purchasing body.
Public procurement accounts for 60 % of public works performed at the local level.
The Italian public procurement system displays weaknesses in its legislative framework and lacks adequate administrative capacity. It is also a field prone to fraud and to links with organised crime.
According to the 2013 ANAC Report, around 22 % of the total number of convictions for corruption were linked to public procurement.

It is also estimated that the average cost of building high-speed railway tracks in Italy costs €61 million/km compared to €10 million/km in France, Spain or Japan"

you see what I mean? DO NOT FEED THE BEAST.

You surely could live well there. As I said it's cheap in many areas. If you got a decent amount of money and can find a way to pay a fair share of taxes is not that bad, as long as you don't have to rely on state. And you will enjoy it for a while.
I mean go there on holidays. Explore it, it's great.
But do not start a business there if you don't know how things work.
You'll get burnt. Another thing is they don't pay for their mistakes. Be it a judge, tax employee, council employee.
If you pay more taxes than due by error, they'll never acknowledge it and will be hard fight to have it back. They'll not answer and you'll have to sue them, that'll cost you time(years) and money(thousands).

It's not conspiracy, the rules are scripted to keep you at the "barely scraping level", to rely on the state. Self-realization as individual through entrepreneurship is almost forbidden, unless you feed the system, politics, mafia. Every smart ones with a big business idea ran away.
That's why everyone's dream in Italy is to become a "public servant". It's like winning the lottery.
If you're sole trader, anywhere past ~50k gross per year you are in the rich tax bracket ( rof/% ), and they'll start to hammer you to death either with taxation or bureaucracy or pension contributions (probably you'll never anything past the minimum pension, public servants get better pension laws too, plenty of sick days, should I say months... etc).
You'll end up working your ass for less than what a junior public servant makes.
There are new tax regimes for new sole traders, like 5 or 15% of income tax for a few years. But they are like a gateway drug, after those few years, you'll go into regular regimes and if you're not "creative", you'll be taxed to death.
These low taxes were just put in place a few years ago. Now they are already talking about upping it back to at least 23% (you still have to add pension etc).

It's not impossible to do it. But it'll be much much harder than UK.
I know brits living in italy. They all say yeah good food, good weather but nothing works, and I still don't know why.
I know italians living in UK. They say shitty weather, shitty housing but stuff works and I was able to start a successful business.
I lived in UK too years ago. I have the whole vision. I know UK these days is going south too, but you get the gist.
All the deep pockets Italian entrepreneurs have inherited the company from their parents, and grandparents and so on.
The "self made man" through business in Italy is almost impossible these days.
Unless you scam people :)
 

spagetifressa

New member
Investing in Italy doesn't make any sense, especially buying houses as that's what's more under the radar of the tax authorities. I'm Italian, but resident in Dubai (fiscally) and Spain (where I have an address for the Italian Government). Living in Italy is doable ( I prefer Spain to Italy, but that's down to personal preference ) and of course it's much better than living in the UK, just don't try to do it legally. If you work remotely, just rent something without a contract and no one will ever bother you, don't open a bank account in Italy, don't make an italian SIM ( you can do a spanish one and it works like an italian one ) and just live under the radar. But if you do something official, like buying a house, you get yourself into troubles.
Can I buy a small(ish) piece of land, sleeping in a camper,staying there a few months a year and still being non resident for fiscal reasons? There are some really cheap pieces of land in Calabria and I'm tempted.
 

maxmmm

Mentor Group Gold
you see what I mean? DO NOT FEED THE BEAST.

You surely could live well there. As I said it's cheap in many areas. If you got a decent amount of money and can find a way to pay a fair share of taxes is not that bad, as long as you don't have to rely on state. And you will enjoy it for a while.
I mean go there on holidays. Explore it, it's great.
But do not start a business there if you don't know how things work.
You'll get burnt. Another thing is they don't pay for their mistakes. Be it a judge, tax employee, council employee.
If you pay more taxes than due by error, they'll never acknowledge it and will be hard fight to have it back. They'll not answer and you'll have to sue them, that'll cost you time(years) and money(thousands).

It's not conspiracy, the rules are scripted to keep you at the "barely scraping level", to rely on the state. Self-realization as individual through entrepreneurship is almost forbidden, unless you feed the system, politics, mafia. Every smart ones with a big business idea ran away.
That's why everyone's dream in Italy is to become a "public servant". It's like winning the lottery.
If you're sole trader, anywhere past ~50k gross per year you are in the rich tax bracket ( rof/% ), and they'll start to hammer you to death either with taxation or bureaucracy or pension contributions (probably you'll never anything past the minimum pension, public servants get better pension laws too, plenty of sick days, should I say months... etc).
You'll end up working your ass for less than what a junior public servant makes.
There are new tax regimes for new sole traders, like 5 or 15% of income tax for a few years. But they are like a gateway drug, after those few years, you'll go into regular regimes and if you're not "creative", you'll be taxed to death.
These low taxes were just put in place a few years ago. Now they are already talking about upping it back to at least 23% (you still have to add pension etc).

It's not impossible to do it. But it'll be much much harder than UK.
I know brits living in italy. They all say yeah good food, good weather but nothing works, and I still don't know why.
I know italians living in UK. They say shitty weather, shitty housing but stuff works and I was able to start a successful business.
I lived in UK too years ago. I have the whole vision. I know UK these days is going south too, but you get the gist.
All the deep pockets Italian entrepreneurs have inherited the company from their parents, and grandparents and so on.
The "self made man" through business in Italy is almost impossible these days.
Unless you scam people :)

This can describe many countries in Europe these days...
 

kkein

Active Member
Investing in Italy doesn't make any sense, especially buying houses as that's what's more under the radar of the tax authorities. I'm Italian, but resident in Dubai (fiscally) and Spain (where I have an address for the Italian Government). Living in Italy is doable ( I prefer Spain to Italy, but that's down to personal preference ) and of course it's much better than living in the UK, just don't try to do it legally. If you work remotely, just rent something without a contract and no one will ever bother you, don't open a bank account in Italy, don't make an italian SIM ( you can do a spanish one and it works like an italian one ) and just live under the radar. But if you do something official, like buying a house, you get yourself into troubles.
Why you say that buying an apartment, f.ex. in some holiday place, would get you in trouble, if you are still officially expat and paying taxes somewhere else, while leaving no persistent traces in italy (like paying cash etc)?
As for the sim card, does the taxman have access to that? I guess only with an investigation pending, or? Asking this because i know that operators, especially cheap ones, do terminate the contracts of those staying abroad for too long, citing rules that expect users to use the card more at home than abroad in a period of 4 months. :)
And also, why are you officially in Spain instead of Dubai? Would the italian taxman be after you if they knew?
 
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challenge

Trusted
This can describe many countries in Europe these days...
True that. EU is nuts. USA is evil too. But if you had to choose where to incorporate a company: Italy or the Netherlands or Cyprus even Estonia or BG/RO... would you still choose Italy? even your man (your avatar, a former Italian premier) hides his money in the Caribbean smi(&%

And also, why are you officially in Spain instead of Dubai? Would the italian taxman be after you if they knew?
Italian tax agency has an internal tax haven black list other than the EU one. IIRC UAE is on it?
When you move away you must register as an expat and have to tell them your foreign address.
They tell it's for embassy/voting as you're still keeping the citizenship even if you live away.
In fact, if you never paid taxes in italy for a decade, then moved straight to a Burj Khalifa flat address, don't you think they'll start suspecting something?
Tax agency has access to the expat lists. They have profiles of the risky ones (active bank accounts, land, house, rent, credit cards etc) and try to target to see if they can get something out of them.
They're not going after the seasonal italian waiter in dubai marina. They're going after HNWI, entrepreneurs, businessmen, etc
They don't have enough budget to investigate anyone. They have some risk profiles based on indicias.
if they get a crs or country report right after you moved and says you already owned a bank account in the UAE before you left your home country, they'll try to tax that.

also many eu countries have an exit tax, e.g. sweden
don't know how italy does it, but I think it should be in place pretty much anywhere inside the EU.
 

shikari

Active Member
Why you say that buying an apartment, f.ex. in some holiday place, would get you in trouble, if you are still officially expat and paying taxes somewhere else, while leaving no persistent traces in italy (like paying cash etc)?
As for the sim card, does the taxman have access to that? I guess only with an investigation pending, or? Asking this because i know that operators, especially cheap ones, do terminate the contracts of those staying abroad for too long, citing rules that expect users to use the card more at home than abroad in a period of 4 months. :)
And also, why are you officially in Spain instead of Dubai? Would the italian taxman be after you if they knew?
if you pay taxes elsewhere there is no issue!I mean the italian government would have nothing to say, that's perfectly legal, you are just buying a second home.
I've been resident outside of Italy since 2013, being resident in Spain is kind of "safer" from tax perspective as UAE is blacklisted for residents. If you ever go back to being an italian resident ( something I do not ever think I will do ), if you come from UAE you are far more likely to be investigated.
 

shikari

Active Member
Can I buy a small(ish) piece of land, sleeping in a camper,staying there a few months a year and still being non resident for fiscal reasons? There are some really cheap pieces of land in Calabria and I'm tempted.
Yes no probs, just don't spend more than six months.
 
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