Question Spaniard - Crypto - Exit strategy - 7 figures (Part 2)

[FreeBit]

This was the first post
https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/spaniard-crypto-exit-strategy-7-figures.32525/

After 15 days more of researching and talking with tax advisors from different countries this are the pros and cons I see for each country/strategy.

Strategy 1: Dubai
Pros:
- 0% tax
- Not that difficult to spend 183 days there (there are interesting things to do).
- Creating invoices to cashout is quite usual - Couple of advisors suggested to create a "software development" company (one mentioned in Sharjah Media City Free Zone, the other didn't mention any free-zone).
- You can cashout and "start" a new crypto account - you can forget about explaining where the money comes from (missing exchanges). It all comes from your successful business in Dubai.
- No company accounting needed.
- No data shared with Spain (other countries).

Cons:
- Cannot get the tax residency until you spend the 187 days (which might be too late if you want to let your origin country's tax department know you're no longer there)
- Not Mediterranean lifestyle
- Hell weather
- Not double tax avoidance treaty with Spain
- High cost of life (remember we're still cash poor)


Strategy 2: Cyprus (+Estonian company)
Pros:
- 0% tax
- UltraEasy to spend 60 days there.
- Mediterranean lifestyle
- Double tax avoidance treaty with Spain
- Can get the tax residency in 15 days (which might be very good if you want to let your origin country's tax department know you're no longer there)
- Low cost of life (remember we're still cash poor)

Cons:
- You can't cashout and "start" a new crypto account - you can only cashout the long term holdings (to avoid being considered as trader).
- You still have "hidden assets" - which can be a problem in the future.
- You have to create a Estonian company the next year to include your trading activity - which includes not spending more than 90 days in Cyprus to avoid being considered as Cyprus company.
- Data shared with Spain (other countries).


Strategy 3: Andorra
Pros:
- You can cashout and "start" a new crypto account - you can cashout everything.
- Not that difficult to spend 183 days there (there are interesting things to do).
- Mediterranean lifestyle ??
- Double tax avoidance treaty with Spain
- Can get the tax residency in 90 days (which might be quite good if you want to let your origin country's tax department know you're no longer there)
- Not expensive cost of life (remember we're still cash poor)

Cons:
- 10% tax (worse than Dubai/Cyprus, better than Spain)
- You have to create a real (i mean real) company + salary + social security + accounting
- You have to deposit 15k€ to the andorran government.
- Data shared with Spain (other countries).

 

[digirider]

Great summary!

- Creating invoices to cashout is quite usual - Couple of advisors suggested to create a "software development" company (one mentioned in Sharjah Media City Free Zone, the other didn't mention any free-zone).

Will you need a "counterparty company" to issue invoices or you can do it yourself?

 

[Fred]

Great summary!

Will you need a "counterparty company" to issue invoices or you can do it yourself?

There are several workarounds.

You don't have to worry about the invoice itself it simply have to fit the business license and the counterparties you mentioned during the account opening.

The most important thing that is missing in the list: BANKS

You face heavy trouble cashing out Crypto with Jurisdictions like Cyprus and Andorra.

They don't have a big real economy so you will face questions from the "banks" in this jurisdictions. I say "banks" because basically Cyprus is Bank Of Cyprus and Andorra is Credit Andorra.

In UAE you can like already mentioned use workarounds that doesn't face many questions as mid 7 figure is considered average and due to 0% tax and no accounting the banks aren't required to ask that many questions.
Of course you have to make a professional setup with a proper license and business plan that satisfy the banks - but if you go with someone that knows how it works it's the best working scheme. UAE banks be like: asking question about the initial account funding and asking for some invoice after 2-3 months. After that you can even use the company as a investment vehicle only even if you have a Social Media Marketing license.

Think longterm and big. I learned it the hard way in the past and I understand that it's annoying for anybody that is in Crypto to have to deal with banks. But if you want to use this year as a kick off for serious wealth planing - ask yourself which jurisdiction of the above mentioned looks the best if you are looking for a private banking relationship with a bank in Switzerland or Singapore -> It's UAE. There is a reason why every big bank has a rep. office in the Dubai International Finance Center.

 

[FreeBit]

Great summary!

Will you need a "counterparty company" to issue invoices or you can do it yourself?

We didn't get into details but knowing you don't need accounting books don't think you have to worry too much about it.

There are several workarounds.

You don't have to worry about the invoice itself it simply have to fit the business license and the counterparties you mentioned during the account opening.

The most important thing that is missing in the list: BANKS

You face heavy trouble cashing out Crypto with Jurisdictions like Cyprus and Andorra.

They don't have a big real economy so you will face questions from the "banks" in this jurisdictions. I say "banks" because basically Cyprus is Bank Of Cyprus and Andorra is Credit Andorra.

In UAE you can like already mentioned use workarounds that doesn't face many questions as mid 7 figure is considered average and due to 0% tax and no accounting the banks aren't required to ask that many questions.
Of course you have to make a professional setup with a proper license and business plan that satisfy the banks - but if you go with someone that knows how it works it's the best working scheme. UAE banks be like: asking question about the initial account funding and asking for some invoice after 2-3 months. After that you can even use the company as a investment vehicle only even if you have a Social Media Marketing license.

Think longterm and big. I learned it the hard way in the past and I understand that it's annoying for anybody that is in Crypto to have to deal with banks. But if you want to use this year as a kick off for serious wealth planing - ask yourself which jurisdiction of the above mentioned looks the best if you are looking for a private banking relationship with a bank in Switzerland or Singapore -> It's UAE. There is a reason why every big bank has a rep. office in the Dubai International Finance Center.

Cyprus:
I've been advised to use Bankera and Bitwala. And then move the money to a swiss bank account for the long term.
Guess the EMIs will ask for a background check and if they're understandable with some missing info (from missing exchanges). Any experience on that?


Andorra:
Once you're ok with the background check to get the residency, you're ok to use the banks.
Also would like to here some first hand experience to double check.

This is gonna be what I'm gonna be reaserching the next days. Also singapur banks

 

[CaptK]

You can double up with regards to your situation as I have done this with a German client.
Get an Estonian tax residency and inform your previous one that you are now in Estonia, Set up your UAE situation in tandem.
Then move and set yourself up in Andorra, a resident of Andorra, you're subject to little direct taxes: There's no wealth tax, no gift tax, no inheritance tax and no capital gains tax. They have a DTT with UAE and you can easily work between the 2 to give you the balance you require.
We also used SEBA Bank for the main holding of both Crypto and cash but a UAE entity to satisfy legal requirements.

It is a lot of money to spend for all the inconvenience (15-20K Euro) and abot 60-90 days but if done correctly, it will be invaluable and only cost a small percentage of your wealth.

 

[Fred]

We didn't get into details but knowing you don't need accounting books don't think you have to worry too much about it.



Cyprus:
I've been advised to use Bankera and Bitwala. And then move the money to a swiss bank account for the long term.
Guess the EMIs will ask for a background check and if they're understandable with some missing info (from missing exchanges). Any experience on that?


Andorra:
Once you're ok with the background check to get the residency, you're ok to use the banks.
Also would like to here some first hand experience to double check.

This is gonna be what I'm gonna be reaserching the next days. Also singapur banks

Puh!

Cyprus with Bankera and Bitwala will fail if only one info is missing - they are very hard regulated adn have to ask all possible questions for Crypto transfers starting from 10.000 EUR - latest at 25.000 EUR.

Beside of that - have fun with transfering 7 figures+ from a Lithuania based EMI to a Swiss or Singapore bank. Singapore bank I doubt anyway as the mentioned banks even don't have a SWIFT connection for Crypto.

Regarding Bitwala - see the thread below even with small money the people fear to loose money:

https://www.offshorecorptalk.com/threads/bitwala.24869/page-4#post-151750
If this isn't enough for you - check the Trustpilot ratings - many frustrated people there same like with Wirex.

You can double up with regards to your situation as I have done this with a German client.
Get an Estonian tax residency and inform your previous one that you are now in Estonia, Set up your UAE situation in tandem.
Then move and set yourself up in Andorra, a resident of Andorra, you're subject to little direct taxes: There's no wealth tax, no gift tax, no inheritance tax and no capital gains tax. They have a DTT with UAE and you can easily work between the 2 to give you the balance you require.
We also used SEBA Bank for the main holding of both Crypto and cash but a UAE entity to satisfy legal requirements.

It is a lot of money to spend for all the inconvenience (15-20K Euro) and abot 60-90 days but if done correctly, it will be invaluable and only cost a small percentage of your wealth.

That's pretty interesting but to be honest - it's overpaying the 3x.

I can imagine the client is super happy and have a great feeling (as he is German like me - I'm very sure) but even here as soon as one info is missing in regards to Crypto like @FreeBit mentioned - forget about SEBA Bank.

Can only repeat myself - for mid 7 figure get a Dubai Company with residence and a Business Bank Account at a retail bank and use some established workarounds. Once done you can really transfer the money to a Swiss Bank and I'm not talking about one of the small private banks - I'm talking about banks like UBS you feel comfortable to bank 8 figures.

Visit there UBS DIFC Branch and get you onboarded as a average guy with a successful business in the UAE over the last years - that's it. No single word about Crypto - only $. From there just go with a SEBA Bank and invest your clean already existing wealth that is sitting in UBS again in Crypto and for the long term conservative portfolio use the services of UBS.

For all the above mentioned you face 7.000 EUR setup fee and 4.000 EUR yearly - that's it.

 

[gmbh]

Visit there UBS DIFC Branch and get you onboarded as a average guy with a successful business in the UAE over the last years - that's it. No single word about Crypto - only $. From there just go with a SEBA Bank and invest your clean already existing wealth that is sitting in UBS again in Crypto and for the long term conservative portfolio use the services of UBS.

So they don't ask for any documents which proof that you really have a running business for years?

And are you sure they don't require you to show audits (even if it's not necessary by law in UAE) or at least invoices (from your suppliers and buyers) for the goods you allegedly buy and sell?

 

[Fred]

So they don't ask for any documents which proof that you really have a running business for years?

And are you sure they don't require you to show audits (even if it's not necessary by law in UAE) or at least invoices (from your suppliers and buyers) for the goods you allegedly buy and sell?

You can stick to E-Commerce.

No Academic Degree or some special skills / education required.

In Dubai living so many kids doing 6-7 figures with E-Commerce / Dropshipping per month. It's normal nowadays.

Invest 30$ to setup a Shopify Shop - create unlimited orders and get some supplier names from AliExpress.

Doing an audit in Dubai is simply paying the fee for it - audit is just showing an overview of the account transfers.

I did it with the said bank, they event didn't required an audit - just bank statement.

 

[FreeBit]

You can double up with regards to your situation as I have done this with a German client.
Get an Estonian tax residency and inform your previous one that you are now in Estonia, Set up your UAE situation in tandem.
Then move and set yourself up in Andorra, a resident of Andorra, you're subject to little direct taxes: There's no wealth tax, no gift tax, no inheritance tax and no capital gains tax. They have a DTT with UAE and you can easily work between the 2 to give you the balance you require.
We also used SEBA Bank for the main holding of both Crypto and cash but a UAE entity to satisfy legal requirements.

It is a lot of money to spend for all the inconvenience (15-20K Euro) and abot 60-90 days but if done correctly, it will be invaluable and only cost a small percentage of your wealth.

This sounds very interesting even if it's more expensive. I do prefer to pay a little bit more and be safer regarding spanish tax agency

Let me detail it to see if I've understood it correctly

2021:
1. Get Estonian tax residency (2 months?)
2. UAE: Rent apartment, create company, open bank account. (1 month?)
3. Live in the UAE: Cash out cryptos, send money from Dubai bank to UBS

2022:
4. Get passive investor residency in Andorra (350k€ investment)
5. Live in Andorra

 

[FreeBit]

Can only repeat myself - for mid 7 figure get a Dubai Company with residence and a Business Bank Account at a retail bank and use some established workarounds. Once done you can really transfer the money to a Swiss Bank and I'm not talking about one of the small private banks - I'm talking about banks like UBS you feel comfortable to bank 8 figures.

Visit there UBS DIFC Branch and get you onboarded as a average guy with a successful business in the UAE over the last years - that's it. No single word about Crypto - only $. From there just go with a SEBA Bank and invest your clean already existing wealth that is sitting in UBS again in Crypto and for the long term conservative portfolio use the services of UBS.

For all the above mentioned you face 7.000 EUR setup fee and 4.000 EUR yearly - that's it.

How long would it take to have all the money in UBS?

You can stick to E-Commerce.

No Academic Degree or some special skills / education required.

In Dubai living so many kids doing 6-7 figures with E-Commerce / Dropshipping per month. It's normal nowadays.

Invest 30$ to setup a Shopify Shop - create unlimited orders and get some supplier names from AliExpress.

Doing an audit in Dubai is simply paying the fee for it - audit is just showing an overview of the account transfers.

I did it with the said bank, they event didn't required an audit - just bank statement.

You would also take care of the workarounds?

 

[Fred]

How long would it take to have all the money in UBS?



You would also take care of the workarounds?

You can pay a profit surplus at once from the Dubai Company directly to UBS account or you pay a monthly salary.

It's up to you and just something on the paper - no one asking question if you pay a 500.000 Euro salary to your personal account -as there is no tax.

Yes we can do the same for you what we did for other clients as well as for ourself.

I mention here all the time what we did in the past and do everyday.

If you pay our invoice with Crypto we do in this moment exactly what we mention to you - no magic.

When you live this year in the UAE physical I can't see any need for Estonia. If you are living in the UAE the whole year Spain can't tax you if you cancel your residence there and don't have any connection. Maybe I'm missing something but for me it looks like overpaying if you stay this whole year in the UAE anyway.

 

[FreeBit]

You can pay a profit surplus at once from the Dubai Company directly to UBS account or you pay a monthly salary.

It's up to you and just something on the paper - no one asking question if you pay a 500.000 Euro salary to your personal account -as there is no tax.

Yes we can do the same for you what we did for other clients as well as for ourself.

I mention here all the time what we did in the past and do everyday.

If you pay our invoice with Crypto we do in this moment exactly what we mention to you - no magic.

When you live this year in the UAE physical I can't see any need for Estonia. If you are living in the UAE the whole year Spain can't tax you if you cancel your residence there and don't have any connection. Maybe I'm missing something but for me it looks like overpaying if you stay this whole year in the UAE anyway.

So I could have 5M€ (or 15M€) deposited in UBS 1 year after creating the company?

 

[tsu458]

Regarding Strategy 2: Cyprus, where do you got the 0% tax? There is a 20% tax on capital gains fom immovable property. Stocks and other finacial stuff is exempt but there is absolutly no clarification for crypto. I think it's risky to assume the 0% tax on the gains.

 

[Fred]

So I could have 5M€ (or 15M€) deposited in UBS 1 year after creating the company?

Yes why not - maybe you overthinking to buy a 4 bedroom villa in Al Barari - who knows..

Look my point is there is a reason why many international banks have a branch at DIFC - they are were the money is and with your mentioned figures they will be happy to serve you - UBS recently changed the minimum relationship balance for private banking so 5m is good start for them.

Can give you our personal private banker contact at some point.

Big figures are always a plus in Dubai when it comes to banks - we have seen everything even banks mention deposit 1m$ and we open the account for you - such stuff we people from Europe know only from the cinema - in the UAE it's real.

 

[CaptK]

This sounds very interesting even if it's more expensive. I do prefer to pay a little bit more and be safer regarding spanish tax agency

Let me detail it to see if I've understood it correctly

2021:
1. Get Estonian tax residency (2 months?)
2. UAE: Rent apartment, create company, open bank account. (1 month?)
3. Live in the UAE: Cash out cryptos, send money from Dubai bank to UBS

2022:
4. Get passive investor residency in Andorra (350k€ investment)
5. Live in Andorra

Correct but use SEBA instead of UBS as they are crypto friendly. They will understand your structure.

@Fred OP said he doesn't want to live in the UAE but I'm sure he will do what's necessary to achieve tax status.
I would push him to suffer the UAE for a year and spend July, August and Ramadan somewhere else.

 

[Fred]

Correct but use SEBA instead of UBS as they are crypto friendly. They will understand your structure.

@Fred OP said he doesn't want to live in the UAE but I'm sure he will do what's necessary to achieve tax status.
I would push him to suffer the UAE for a year and spend July, August and Ramadan somewhere else.

Yes initially he mentioned but then

This sounds very interesting even if it's more expensive. I do prefer to pay a little bit more and be safer regarding spanish tax agency

Let me detail it to see if I've understood it correctly

2021:
1. Get Estonian tax residency (2 months?)
2. UAE: Rent apartment, create company, open bank account. (1 month?)
3. Live in the UAE: Cash out cryptos, send money from Dubai bank to UBS

2022:
4. Get passive investor residency in Andorra (350k€ investment)
5. Live in Andorra

I can only agree with @CaptK it's worth it to spend 2021 in the UAE no matter what you think about the country. With the crazy lockdown in europe we have so many clients here like never before. Just yesterday someone from italy made 2 weeks longer here because italy have lockdown again.

 

[FreeBit]

Regarding Strategy 2: Cyprus, where do you got the 0% tax? There is a 20% tax on capital gains fom immovable property. Stocks and other finacial stuff is exempt but there is absolutly no clarification for crypto. I think it's risky to assume the 0% tax on the gains.

It's not regulated and the advisors have mentioned that 0%

Correct but use SEBA instead of UBS as they are crypto friendly. They will understand your structure.

@Fred OP said he doesn't want to live in the UAE but I'm sure he will do what's necessary to achieve tax status.
I would push him to suffer the UAE for a year and spend July, August and Ramadan somewhere else.

Yes initially he mentioned but then



I can only agree with @CaptK it's worth it to spend 2021 in the UAE no matter what you think about the country. With the crazy lockdown in europe we have so many clients here like never before. Just yesterday someone from italy made 2 weeks longer here because italy have lockdown again.

I don't want to live in Dubai because I prefer the mediterranean climate than the desert. A house close to the beach, with sailing, MTB surf, snorkeling, making bbq with friends, enjoyable during the whole year...

But I'm aware that I have to spend 187 days (and moving my center of interests) wherever I choose to not be considered spanish tax resident this year.
I've been advised to move to cyprus. But not disclosing everything and not having banks to cashout is definetly a problem.
Andorra, don't think I'm gonna be accepted there because I cannot prove the source of origin of funds.
Switzerland, I qualify as commercial trader (income tax) by the circular 36 of the FTA.
Portugal, there is guarantee I won't be considered as trader (income tax).
Spain, best case (>20%), worst case 49%, f**k this s**t.

As said, Dubai is looking like the best option right now. And I'm willing to make things as simple as posible.
Meaning I'm willing to stay 187 days in Dubai this year and the next one.
And then move to the next place where I can have my money without questions and enjoy life as I want.

 

[Fred]

It's not regulated and the advisors have mentioned that 0%





I don't want to live in Dubai because I prefer the mediterranean climate than the desert. A house close to the beach, with sailing, MTB surf, snorkeling, making bbq with friends, enjoyable during the whole year...

But I'm aware that I have to spend 187 days (and moving my center of interests) wherever I choose to not be considered spanish tax resident this year.
I've been advised to move to cyprus. But not disclosing everything and not having banks to cashout is definetly a problem.
Andorra, don't think I'm gonna be accepted there because I cannot prove the source of origin of funds.
Switzerland, I qualify as commercial trader (income tax) by the circular 36 of the FTA.
Portugal, there is guarantee I won't be considered as trader (income tax).
Spain, best case (>20%), worst case 49%, f**k this s**t.

As said, Dubai is looking like the best option right now. And I'm willing to make things as simple as posible.
Meaning I'm willing to stay 187 days in Dubai this year and the next one.
And then move to the next place where I can have my money without questions and enjoy life as I want.

Even if you move forward you can keep the UAE scheme - they issue tax certificate after 1-2 years even if you don't live 180 days there.

Go for it.

 

[gmbh]

It's not regulated and the advisors have mentioned that 0%

Do you have any source for this?

I got different info from local tax advisors. They said you can't be sure how you will be taxed, so worst case would be up to 35% income tax.

 

[Arizor8]

Just read both part 1 and part 2 of your posts which were very helpful - I'm in a similar situation but in the UK and looking for what I can do to reduce the taxes on my crypto when I sell. Looked at several options but not considered UAE properly until now. @Fred I've filled out the form on your site. Look forward to speaking. Thanks!