Tax the middle class (and billionaires) out of existence?

[Don]

Nowadays we have ideas spreading that billionaires should be taxed out of existence:

Some countries seem to want to extend this to the middle class, returning to feudal society (e.g., neo-feudalism).

According to the attached document, when we look into Europe - Dual-Earner Family: Average Effective Tax Burden of the Middle-Class, Two Adults with Two Children - lowest effective tax rates are in Estonia and Cyprus

The biggest difference is in the taxation of the upper-middle class, who are taxed the most.

In conclusion, your tax residency can make a big difference.

On September 4, 2023 the Dutch Secretary of State for Finances has sent a sent a summarization of the July 10-12 meeting of the OECD Inclusive Framework (the IF) to the Dutch House of Commons. The letter gives some interesting insights in what has been discussed and on some of the views of the outgoing Dutch Government:

The Netherlands has indicated that it is important to look forward to the challenges in the areas of climate, social inequality and the global mobility of labor and the super-rich. With regard to this increased global mobility, the Netherlands has indicated that it poses new challenges for the tax system, such as taxing capital and labor. The OECD has an important role in this, in the Inclusive Framework on Carbon Mitigation Approaches with regard to climate and in the Inclusive Framework on BEPS with regard to the international tax system. Specifically, the Netherlands has indicated that it is a priority to come to international agreements on the taxation of so-called “high net worth individuals”. With the increased mobility of people and the growing global wealth inequality, it is important to make global agreements on this matter. Some other countries confirmed this priority.

Share your insights, and let's engage in a productive discussion!

 

[Martin Everson]

We need to move to a system of transaction tax on all transaction as follows i.e

5% < $5000
15% > $5000
30% > $1m

So each time you transact you pay these taxes. Think of it as a final withholding tax being applied. It's simple and sweet.

Then eliminate all other forms of tax i.e payroll, personal income, corporate income, CGT, VAT, import duty etc and even the need for tax filings and tax collection to no longer exist etc.

For this to happen you would need a programmable CDBC and for every country in the world to use its own CDBC and have global common rule book setup between all countries on tax rates to program into the CDBC...hummmm maybe I am thinking too far ahead .

This will ensure the wealthy pay their fair share as they would consume more higher value goods and services. However this can only work if every country has a programmable CDBC system and those that dont join becoming blacklisted countries for trading.

 

[Don]

We need to move to a system of transaction tax on all transaction as follows i.e

5% < $5000
15% > $5000
30% > $1m

So each time you transact you pay these taxes. Think of it as a final withholding tax being applied. It's simple and sweet.

Then eliminate all other forms of tax i.e payroll, personal income, corporate income, CGT, VAT, import duty etc and even the need for tax filings and tax collection to no longer exist etc.

For this to happen you would need a programmable CDBC and for every country in the world to use its own CDBC and have global common rule book setup between all countries on tax rates to program into the CDBC...hummmm maybe I am thinking too far ahead .

This will ensure the wealthy pay their fair share as they would consume more higher value goods and services. However this can only work if every country has a programmable CDBC system and those that dont join becoming blacklisted countries for trading.

And I guess this will be combined with deep negative interest rates (technically a tax on savings), which I expect to be the first step (maybe your proposed system will follow - who knows? You might want to send your solution to IMF at How to Contact the IMF)

Enabling Deep Negative Rates to Fight Recessions: A Guide

The experience of the Great Recession and its aftermath revealed that a lower bound on interest rates can be a serious obstacle for fighting recessions. However, the zero lower bound is not a law of nature; it is a policy choice. The central message of this paper is that with readily available...

www.imf.org

 

[Martin Everson]

And I guess this will be combined with deep negative interest rates (technically a tax on savings), which I expect to be the first step

Yes what you call negative rates will actually be another name for wealth tax which will apply over a certain threshold. Once all assets are tokenised i.e real estate, stocks, bonds etc etc it will make it very easy to apply these negative rates on a persons wealth. Hence the rich will automatically pay more.

 

[Mercury]

We need to move to a system of transaction tax on all transaction as follows i.e

5% < $5000
15% > $5000
30% > $1m

Interesting.
How would you avoid workarounds? For instance, it's "only" 20 transactions taxed at 5% to move $100K.

 

[Don]

Interesting.
How would you avoid workarounds? For instance, it's "only" 20 transactions taxed at 5% to move $100K.

Don't forget trading with physical commodities, e.g., gold, sheep, or young women.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Don't forget trading with physical commodities, e.g., gold, sheep, or young women.

And XMR

 

[Berti]

We need to move to a system of transaction tax on all transaction as follows i.e

5% < $5000
15% > $5000
30% > $1m

So each time you transact you pay these taxes. Think of it as a final withholding tax being applied. It's simple and sweet.

Then eliminate all other forms of tax i.e payroll, personal income, corporate income, CGT, VAT, import duty etc and even the need for tax filings and tax collection to no longer exist etc.

For this to happen you would need a programmable CDBC and for every country in the world to use its own CDBC and have global common rule book setup between all countries on tax rates to program into the CDBC...hummmm maybe I am thinking too far ahead .

This will ensure the wealthy pay their fair share as they would consume more higher value goods and services. However this can only work if every country has a programmable CDBC system and those that dont join becoming blacklisted countries for trading.

Regardless of how you do it, a simple tax system with only one tax will never be accepted by the tax payers. High taxes only work if you split the total tax into dozens of different taxes. So most people have no idea of how much tax they pay in total.

 

[jafo]

I don't even waste my time with ANY of these conmen/grifters!
If they cared about the issues they raise, they could get a 2nd and 3rd job and with the fruits of THEIR labor they can address these "issues".

 

[wellington]

We need to move to a system of transaction tax on all transaction as follows i.e

5% < $5000
15% > $5000
30% > $1m

So each time you transact you pay these taxes. Think of it as a final withholding tax being applied. It's simple and sweet.

Then eliminate all other forms of tax i.e payroll, personal income, corporate income, CGT, VAT, import duty etc and even the need for tax filings and tax collection to no longer exist etc.

For this to happen you would need a programmable CDBC and for every country in the world to use its own CDBC and have global common rule book setup between all countries on tax rates to program into the CDBC...hummmm maybe I am thinking too far ahead .

This will ensure the wealthy pay their fair share as they would consume more higher value goods and services. However this can only work if every country has a programmable CDBC system and those that dont join becoming blacklisted countries for trading.

Which side are you on lol.

Besides easy enough to circumnavigate around, was speaking with a neighbour yesterday where he bought a property, at the land office they introduced QR payments to stop corruption, there was a fee in cash lol

Make cash illegal or remove it, and it's replaced with whiskey, gold etc barter system, something exchangeable elsewhere.

Besides enough tax receipts to pay for the overheads, its purely wastage by government and too big a government that has led to the state they are in.

For me, i will simply move to where i get tax benefits or no tax..

Anyone with money will.

To give you an example. the UK wastes 30 billion pounds per year holding on to Northern Ireland, literally 20-30 billion is pumped in for a little over a million people, the country left the EU over reportedly paying 50 billion for access to 400m people in a common market place.

The UK probably wastes as much as 60 pence per pound in oversized government and bureaucracy with the NHS alone, I remember two decades ago when they were dumping brand new computes just to ensure they got the following years budget.

I left the UK and never looked back, after the UK Gov used my taxes to bail out the Irish banking system, and the Council holdings in Iceland.

Today these councils hold great wealth overseas whilst their districts fall into ruins as they invest the % gains into regeneration, not the actual capital which they invest to earn a yield.

 

[jafo]

Which side are you on lol.

Besides easy enough to circumnavigate around, was speaking with a neighbour yesterday where he bought a property, at the land office they introduced QR payments to stop corruption, there was a fee in cash lol

Make cash illegal or remove it, and it's replaced with whiskey, gold etc barter system, something exchangeable elsewhere.

Besides enough tax receipts to pay for the overheads, its purely wastage by government and too big a government that has led to the state they are in.

For me, i will simply move to where i get tax benefits or no tax..

Anyone with money will.

To give you an example. the UK wastes 30 billion pounds per year holding on to Northern Ireland, literally 20-30 billion is pumped in for a little over a million people, the country left the EU over reportedly paying 50 billion for access to 400m people in a common market place.

The UK probably wastes as much as 60 pence per pound in oversized government and bureaucracy with the NHS alone, I remember two decades ago when they were dumping brand new computes just to ensure they got the following years budget.

I left the UK and never looked back, after the UK Gov used my taxes to bail out the Irish banking system, and the Council holdings in Iceland.

Today these councils hold great wealth overseas whilst their districts fall into ruins as they invest the % gains into regeneration, not the actual capital which they invest to earn a yield.

100% this!
Your story reminds me of an elderly chap (~96 years old) who once told me:
If you allow "women" to choose where YOU should lift & place the heavy furniture, they'll NEVER "choose" the perfect spot!

 

[Martin Everson]

How would you avoid workarounds? For instance, it's "only" 20 transactions taxed at 5% to move $100K.

You add logic that adds up value of subsequent transactions originating from same wallet going to the same recipient wallet. If amount exceeds the first tax tier then further transactions are charged at next tier level etc as punishment and furthermore you drive the recipient wallet balance negative as punishment to discourage structuring transactions....lol.

So most people have no idea of how much tax they pay in total.

You will see clearly see your i.e "gas mileage" before you submit the payment based on value of transaction. It will be clear as day the tax rate.

Which side are you on lol.

lol....I am just thinking out the box like a OECD demon .

 

[jafo]

OECD demon

You mean the same OECD demons who are income tax exempt?

 

[Marzio]

How ironic, isn't it?

 

[Martin Everson]

You mean the same OECD demons who are income tax exempt?
View attachment 5384

Now ain't that something.

 

[wellington]

At the moment, we have the means to move around the world and get out of this dystopian cluster f**k, when those get closed (they will) down, and the world is in a state of high taxation, populist policies, socialism on cocaine... then you see a violent push back and civil/wars.

I admit if it came to that, it would likely be the hill i would die on.

Mind Argentina looks interesting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1702442099814342725

or at least in the future.

 

[jafo]

this dystopian cluster f**k, when those get closed (they will) down, and the world is in a state of high taxation, populist policies, socialism on cocaine

The willpower & discipline to police this at this level is dying out. This policing was only possible because of the Anglo-Saxons and other Westerners. Europe in 10 years will NOT look even remotely like the Europe of the 70s & 80s at all. At this rate, I "opine" CH will also fall in 3 years and Monaco will get "invaded" in 5 or less.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1702206265584136558

There are already "beggars" from other countries at the Lidl in Schlieren. Packages dropped off near the mailboxes are being "picked up" by various non-Western nonresidents.


USA is losing its will too. Just look at the laws in California regarding shoplifting.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1695394004345520280

The grifters (i.e. politicians) are running out of manpower to enforce just laws and are "welcoming more surgeons, engineers, and scientists"

https://twitter.com/x/status/1701953663277699462

I've been doing business in Latin America for decades and, except for the Elephants of business, I can't get one person, private or public, to be consistent for even 30 days. It just won't happen

I can't go more into it because it is NOT PC.

Also, for the last few months, I have been able to pay for products & services with crypto. Even travel, car rental & hotels. A ton of options: https://www.travala.com/

The world will turn into the haves vs. the haves not.

I admit if it came to that, it would likely be the hill i would die on.

I'm certain Asia, the Caribbean, and Latin America will be just fine as the "unproductive deadweight" will be looking for greener pasture (i.e. the West) to leech off.

The pendulum swings

Cheers...