Why risk offshore? Just pay some taxes

avalanche

Trusted Member
Business Angel
seems like you don't realize the whole picture - there is no country in EU where the state takes less than 50% from your business profit (corporate tax + dividends tax + VAT on consumption) + many other more hidden taxes (fuel, properties, alcohol, ...)
on average I'd say it's like 70% effective taxation (much more in ridiculous countries like France for example)

this money is involuntarily taken from you, used for financing stuff you wouldn't ever buy or support and in return you're given something insanely overpriced what you mostly don't need and paying these thing for those who can't afford it (the magic words are "solidarity" and "equality")
you're living in an ilusion of stability, order and safety that works only because there is a state monopoly for violence and printing valueless papers called money
for all that you're told you should be grateful and behave
MAFIA uses exactly the same scheme

not everyone can leave but if you can just run as soon as possible because soon they will not let you go for free
What about Cyprus though?
 

Artemis Eleutheria

Trusted Member
Business Angel
it does not change just because you are panama residency without living there or does it? sounds too easy for me.
It would depend on you not becoming tax resident in another country accidentally or carelessly ... if you spend all year in France they will tax you no matter what that Panama Fiscal Residence Permit says.
 

avalanche

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Hi,

I was discussing with a friend about the following situation: Why would you risk your ass to go offshore if you could just:

1. Incorporate the company in your country (As long as the Corp tax is max 25% is it still fair)
2. Accumulate money into the LTD and then
3. Move to a country with low dividend tax like Portugal (0%) or Slovakia (7%) and get out all dividends from your LTD without health insurarance.

As long as the tax rate is 25% + (0% to 7%), it is not a big drama as you will have all those advantages.

A. Cash into a safe country and possibility to make investments and more
B.No Offshore cost, Risks, fraud, etc.
C.No Taxation Risk (claims, process, audit, etc)


Does it make this sense to you?
You seem to be spreading cheap socialist propaganda lol. Good attempt, doesnt work.
Real tax ends up way beyond your imaginary 25% lol. Just take into account VAT which is already a robbery.
 

KJK

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Well honestly I think VAT is one of the more "fairer" taxes, or at least it is somehow honest. You consume, so part of that consumption goes to state and you pay indirectly. It is also politically must feasible to implement and then to make it higher, and higher.

Excise taxes are also politically easy to deal with - just tax people who smoke, drink alcohol or sugary drinks. I am strongly against the fact that the state should tell me how I'm supposed to destroy my body. It is somehow absurd, why the state allows me to drink vodka and smoke tobacco but smoking weed and using cocaine is forbidden? I want to be allowed to ruin my body in whatever way I wish.

I think the most unfair taxes are property taxes and property transfer taxes. You own a house? Pay 2% per year just due to the fact that you own it! You want to transfer the house to someone? Pay 4% just because this transfer is recorded in some retarded government registry or database!

Income taxes also aren't very fair, especially for common employees who cannot defend themselves and are forced to pay income tax+social insurance+health insurance. In some countries such as France this causes so much trouble that companies find it difficult just to compete or even to fire someone. I think in the future with more decentralization and more P2P economy, this tax will be more and more difficult to enforce.

Unfortunately, that means that states will have to heighten the first three mentioned categories (VAT, excise and property tax). The only way out of this is just move - vote with your feet. Or maybe start using crypto and wait until all this collapses in the next recession, I won't be surprised if countries like France, Italy or Belgium will have a fucked up next 20-30 years.
 

avalanche

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Well honestly I think VAT is one of the more "fairer" taxes, or at least it is somehow honest. You consume, so part of that consumption goes to state and you pay indirectly. It is also politically must feasible to implement and then to make it higher, and higher.

Excise taxes are also politically easy to deal with - just tax people who smoke, drink alcohol or sugary drinks. I am strongly against the fact that the state should tell me how I'm supposed to destroy my body. It is somehow absurd, why the state allows me to drink vodka and smoke tobacco but smoking weed and using cocaine is forbidden? I want to be allowed to ruin my body in whatever way I wish.

I think the most unfair taxes are property taxes and property transfer taxes. You own a house? Pay 2% per year just due to the fact that you own it! You want to transfer the house to someone? Pay 4% just because this transfer is recorded in some retarded government registry or database!

Income taxes also aren't very fair, especially for common employees who cannot defend themselves and are forced to pay income tax+social insurance+health insurance. In some countries such as France this causes so much trouble that companies find it difficult just to compete or even to fire someone. I think in the future with more decentralization and more P2P economy, this tax will be more and more difficult to enforce.

Unfortunately, that means that states will have to heighten the first three mentioned categories (VAT, excise and property tax). The only way out of this is just move - vote with your feet. Or maybe start using crypto and wait until all this collapses in the next recession, I won't be surprised if countries like France, Italy or Belgium will have a fucked up next 20-30 years.
Now add inflation, social taxes, insurances and countless more. Also my favourite is inflation. Do you think it is fair that central bank is printing the very money you earn with hard labor without any control whatsoever? They never ask your permission but you have to ask them for permission to be successful (in form of business license)? And then your taxman is taking what is left from you as commission for your success?

Nobody gives a shit about you when you are poor (gov would also try to keep you there) but when you start making money, taxman is all there waiting and counting the possible revenue.
 

Jay Hastings

New Member
Hi im new to offshore setups, but why discuss this as if its all of nothing, you can have a local business and divert some income offshore, going full offshore is probably not practical.
 

Artemis Eleutheria

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Making sure you earn very little onshore may be viable ... but may also be risky.

Key aspect is that there is no one solution that fits everyone perfectly.
 
Another reason to why some want to go offshore may be privacy and to make it less attractive to anyone to sue a company for some reason ;)
I agree as I am in the same boat. My main concern is privacy and asset protection. I am still paying the same tax as everything is declared in my tax return. However, I am feeling safer that no ambulance chaser lawyer can trace my asset nor get any local jurisdiction order to reach my assets abroad.
 

xzars

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Mentor Group
Why risk offshore, just pay some taxes in Belgium!

Annual Salary: 1M (Hello big fat CEOs of big fat multinationals)
After tax income: 386K

Source:
Belgium Tax Calculator

Why not buy some nice Belgian chocolate to make those capitalist tears a little sweeter? Oh wait, there's VAT! Onononoooo.
 

mange38

Trusted Member
Business Angel
Why risk offshore, just pay some taxes in Belgium!

Annual Salary: 1M (Hello big fat CEOs of big fat multinationals)
After tax income: 386K

Source:
Belgium Tax Calculator

Why not buy some nice Belgian chocolate to make those capitalist tears a little sweeter? Oh wait, there's VAT! Onononoooo.
Lol. Buy an even bigger chocolate and request a VAT refund. EU can suck my dick.
 

marioIT

New Member
jesus those belgium taxes! where the money goes? i have a feeling...
According to the institution’s own data, the European Parliament’s budget for 2018 came to around 1.95 billion euro. 44 percent of the budget was used for costs related to staff and civil servants of the Parliament.
 

lavel

Offshore Agent
Business Angel
jesus those belgium taxes! where the money goes? i have a feeling...
Is like in any other EU country where tax and VAT apply. If you don't like it just move away to a better country with taxes and vat rate that fits????
 

Spondula

Offshore account you can open from your phone
I choosed HK to continue the same business than in EU. But if you are free about these things, I will go to Thailand (I love the islands..Kho Samui...) or South Africa (wonderful country, but not suitable for a family), Marocco, Dubai, Mauricious (I love)...so many options
If you love South Africa Botswana is quite a good alternative. Safe, relatively low taxes (income tax capped at 20%). South Africa a stones throw away (quite literally if you live on the river south of the capital).

However of those listed Mauritius would be my real go to....as you say SA isn't very safe anymore...sadly.
 

kriyazen

Member
If you love South Africa Botswana is quite a good alternative. Safe, relatively low taxes (income tax capped at 20%). South Africa a stones throw away (quite literally if you live on the river south of the capital).

However of those listed Mauritius would be my real go to....as you say SA isn't very safe anymore...sadly.
I live in South Africa, BW is no good for sure. I'd not trust any African country. Give it a few years, they are already fighting after Khama's departure.
 

JohnSeed

Corporate Services
Business Angel
Mentor Group
Commercial Service
Lol. Buy an even bigger chocolate and request a VAT refund. EU can suck my dick.
yes it start to suck crock balls here in the EU - it's time to make up your mind and decide what side of the table you want to sit at.
 

hernanday

Building Trust
Entrepreneur
This.

25% Income Tax on corporate level is absurdly high. It's so absurdly high it's not even debatable if it's fair or not.

What happens in a typical EU nation:

1. 25% Corporate Income Tax
2. Dividend is paid, corp coughs up 5% more in dividend withholding tax

30% Is gone.

---

3. Individual receiving the dividend pays progressive Personal Income Tax, usually 20% effective rate
4. Individual spends the earnings on goods and services, paying VAT, usually at 20% effective rate

70% Is gone! And this is assuming that the individual can legally live off of dividends only. Some states are aggressive towards this practice and they require some sort of salary or director's remuneration income that would be subject to social security contributions.

---

In one way or another, two thirds of purchasing power is confiscated from the productive who make 100K or more.

Notes: We did not consider sin taxes like driving diesel cars and drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes etc.
A country like that is only worth staying in to establish contacts, get the business of the ground and leave when it becomes significantly profitable.
 

hernanday

Building Trust
Entrepreneur
Exactly, that's why I ask what else it can bring me.
On the other hand if one can manage not to be a tax resident elsewhere it could be useful.
I skimmed much of the thread but I have been recently reading more deeply on the topic of foreign controlled corporations aka controlled foreign company aka cfc.
I'm not sure your country of origin is, but without knowing the specific answer no one here can answer that question. Almost every country in the developed world has some version of cfc rules.
They basically are an anti-tax avoidance measure. The USA is the most draconian, they tax earnings you have anywhere in the world, even in a private corporation simply because you are American and treat capital gains as dividends in that sense. Other nations like Australia and Brazil and I believe UK might do this as well. They basically do not recognize your foreign corporation as a separate entity from the owner (Citizen) UNDER ANY CONDITIONS if they own more than 50% of the "votes or value" and that number is increasingly being lowered to 10% (thank you Donald Trump... so much for Republicans cutting taxes eh).

Some people might think O well, I just not tell the government on my tax forms that I have this account in Panama so they won't know I'm earning this money. This is why they have pushed fatca and crs so hard into every corner of the planet and automatic sharing agreements. They will not only know that you have those accounts, they will also know that you are lying too. And you will get hit with massive back taxes and fees. The only real solutions is to up and leave these countries. They have become so hostile and anti-business that you'd be better off giving up your citizenship there, visiting and ironically using them as tax havens (Specifically the USA who doesn't share with outside countries and allows anonymous corps and doesn't even levy taxes on non-residents who earn nothing there).

The second set of CFC countries include Canada and countries like them. They technically have no formal rule calling it cfc, but what they do is they tax overseas income from citizen owned/controlled corporations not under any conditions but where it appears to be passive income. They basically have an active business/earnings test and a taxation test. Essentially, if you have what looks like a passive income that is being used to earn money through a subsidiary, they tax you at high rates. However, if you set up what looks like a legit business, you can bring home that earnings nearly tax free so long as taxes are paid in a foreign jurisidiction who has a tax sharing agreeement with canada. That is typically barbados who puts a 1-2.5% tax on these types of firms. So one could earn like $4 million USD from a web business, setup in Barbados with a manager and at least 5 employees to make it look legit (typically they like 5 employees from my reading as a minimum) -don't worry min wage in barbados is low- run your business from barbados as subsidiary, stay in Canada, and only pay like 2.5% tax, without having to relocate on your $4 million. Not too bad, probably walk away with $3.8 million vs paying Canadian tax man, 30-40%.

The third set of countries have no cfc rules, but it includes almost no developed nations, you might find one or two on there, but if it exist it would probably already be a place with low taxes like HK or already a tax haven.

The benefit to relocating to Panama would be if you are in set 1 nations you reduce your taxes by exiting. If you are in set 2 nations you can effectively eliminate your tax rate if you have enough money.
 

hernanday

Building Trust
Entrepreneur
can you please share your experience with Botswana and what's wrong specifically
thanks
Nothing is wrong with it for now. It has been under Democratic rule and historically very stable. The issue is the first president ruled, then his son, who is now no longer ruling is out. He seems to be commenting and trying to almost influence the party he use to head up despite his term being over and no longer allowed to run. There is some tension because they are the same party, and people look at the region and instability from all sides and think it would/could be very easy for Botswana to go the wrong way. Especially if a major Western power who has been know to play games in Africa, arm rebels, and back coups etc. like Britain, USA, France, decide they want the new leader out.

I believe Botswana is going through a new transition but it will likely turn out ok. It is a small nation with just a few million people, and didn't have large number of euro settlers that caused problems and complications in places like Mozambique, Zimbabwe, South Africa, Kenya, North/West Africa, Congo, Rwanda etc.

The new president Masisi is very focused on expanding the economy. However the opposition party has just successfully challenged in court his hotly contested recent election. Masisi is hated by the old president khama because he has been cleaning up corruption (aka firing his cronies who were stealing money) and using the country money to do the right things. He is doing things Khama claimed couldn't be done. So I would wait to see the outcome of the next election, because Masisi won 51% of the vote but Khama is involved behind the scenes with opposition partywho only have 31% of seats. Khama has a military backgground. While Botswana has never had a coup, there was evidence a wealth south african family was involved in trying to do one recently and if one is going to happen Khama would be the one to do it. I would wait 2-3 years before investing there until Masisi has firm control of things, because Khama is not going down quietly.

PS. while Masisi is the reasonable pro business party/candidate, the leader of the opposition coalition is promising to triple min wage, 100,000 public sector jobs (in a country of 2 million) and to increase pensions and presumably taxes.
 
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