Best European country for real estate investment?

[flyingadventures662]

Which country would you recommend for a ~250K real estate investment in Europe and why?

Currently we are finishing our first investment in Spain. The prices there are ridiculously low and the rentability is insanely high but there is a good reason for that - everything is so unreliable and messed up that it's basically a high risk high reward investment like when you bet on shitcoins in the crypto market.

So we are looking to differentiate a bit.

 

[Mr Gus]

Depends on what you qualify as best? Low tax? Solid constructions? Low bureaucracy? High yields? Easy access to capital?

What is it that you are looking for? Most countries don't offer all of them so there is probably no "best" country.

 

[polonieth]

Mariupol.

 

[flyingadventures662]

Depends on what you qualify as best? Low tax? Solid constructions? Low bureaucracy? High yields? Easy access to capital?

What is it that you are looking for? Most countries don't offer all of them so there is probably no "best" country.

Good point,

I actually meant most than anything country which has the best timing to buy now, i.e. prices are correcting. Sorry I missed that.

High yield - I doubt anything could beat Spain but I'd say something in the golden middle with decent yield but more stability - where you can rely on finding good agents and most importantly good tenants who you are allowed to make leave if they don't pay their rent.

Also to be reasonably easy to enter the market as a foreigner in terms of language and beauriracy.

 

[jafo]

Before you engage in this project, I suggest you search on Twitter about migrants, housing, and squatters.

Also, read this post. How on earth is EUSSR still standing?
It shocked the bejesus out of me. I knew it was bad, but NOT this bad.

 

[Radko]

Which country would you recommend for a ~250K real estate investment in Europe and why?

Currently we are finishing our first investment in Spain. The prices there are ridiculously low and the rentability is insanely high but there is a good reason for that - everything is so unreliable and messed up that it's basically a high risk high reward investment like when you bet on shitcoins in the crypto market.

So we are looking to differentiate a bit.

Real Estate in the capital of the EUSSR, Spain! It's only a matter of time before you regret that decision, whatever you do don't rent that property, "Ocupas" are lurking.

 

[flyingadventures662]

Real Estate in the capital of the EUSSR, Spain! It's only a matter of time before you regret that decision, whatever you do don't rent that property, "Ocupas" are lurking.

From what I have heard from my extensive research okupas are a threat only if you rent the whole apartment. I have talked to many people who are aware of the problem and all of them said in their entire life they had never jad okupas nor heard of any if you rent by individual rooms.

They also said in this case even notna need to do a insurance against lack of payment.

 

[Radko]

From what I have heard from my extensive research okupas are a threat only if you rent the whole apartment. I have talked to many people who are aware of the problem and all of them said in their entire life they had never jad okupas nor heard of any if you rent by individual rooms.

They also said in this case even notna need to do a insurance against lack of payment.

Alright, well here I am...

I was renting a room to a guy in an apartment that I own (two bedroom apartment fully furnished) this SOB decided to give the keys of the apartment to a couple of his friends. The guy that was renting the room left, leaving the other two friends in the apartment. It's been now almost 2 year, I am paying for the utility bills (I'm not allowed to cut the power or the water supply as it is a crime and I would face 2 years in Prison for "coercion")
I'm also paying the community fees of course.

I think at least one more year before I the courthouse sends the police to kick them out.

Bottom line, Okupas are protected by Spanish law as you know, and the astonishing thing is that under the current Spanish law when you become an Okupa you're not violating any laws, in other words it is NOT a crime.
So one day they will have to leave the apartment free of any charges, and I will have lost a lot of money.

I'm in the process of leaving Spain for good, I could get into all the reasons behind my decision but there's no point, sadly the Socialist/Communist party has ruined the country, and as you may know they are about to stay in power for another 4 years.

The main problem is that you, as an owner, have no power other than going to the CourtHouse and wait until the judge makes a decision, and unfortunately the Spanish court system is extremely slow, so all you can do is wait and carry on paying for the OKupas utility expenses.

Yes I did call the Police, they did come to the apartment, they asked all the silly question, and they said to me "I'm sorry but we can't kick them out, you have to go to the courthouse and take it from there."

Be very careful, my humble advice is to only rent the place to tourists, in other words, short-term. Forget long-term rental.
Best thing you can do is get someone to do it for you, someone that does that professionally unless you have time to do it yourself. You can use your own website or go through booking.com or Airbnb.

If you decide to rent rooms or the whole apartment you are playing with fire, it's only a matter of time (Spain is the world capital of Okupas, plenty of people around poor countries are coming here just because they know they can live rent free endlessly, the OKupas in my apartment are from Romania.)

I know, it absolutely INSANE, and not being able to cut the water or the electricity is just the icing on the cake

Best of luck, I will be selling the apartment and that's it, no more communist Spain for me and my family (luckily it's a big world.)

 

[jafo]

Real Estate in the capital of the EUSSR, Spain! It's only a matter of time before you regret that decision, whatever you do don't rent that property, "Ocupas" are lurking.

If my memory serves me correctly, you have a home in Spain that has some squatters in it.

It would be a tremendous PSA for you to write a "first-hand, first-account, boots-on-the-battleground-in-the-trenches" war story so gullible people can look back at your story and kick themselves in the arse AFTER Spain's reality brutally wakes them up from their Lalaland fantasy. Because we ALL know they will piss on that electric fence themselves, notwithstanding the fate of incredibly accomplished people e.g.
Leo Messi,
Cristiano Ronaldo,
Neymar,
Shakira,
and countless others with "the best political connections, political privileges, political influence, lobbyist, advisors, accountants, lawyers, etc. etc." money can buy.

Cheers!

Alright, well here I am...

I was renting a room to a guy in an apartment that I own (two bedroom apartment fully furnished) this SOB decided to give the keys of the apartment to a couple of his friends. The guy that was renting the room left, leaving the other two friends in the apartment. It's been now almost 2 year, I am paying for the utility bills (I'm not allowed to cut the power or the water supply as it is a crime and I would face 2 years in Prison for "coercion")
I'm also paying the community fees of course.

I think at least one more year before I the courthouse sends the police to kick them out.

Bottom line, Okupas are protected by Spanish law as you know, and the astonishing thing is that under the current Spanish law when you become an Okupa you're not violating any laws, in other words it is NOT a crime.
So one day they will have to leave the apartment free of any charges, and I will have lost a lot of money.

I'm in the process of leaving Spain for good, I could get into all the reasons behind my decision but there's no point, sadly the Socialist/Communist party has ruined the country, and as you may know they are about to stay in power for another 4 years.

The main problem is that you, as an owner, have no power other than going to the CourtHouse and wait until the judge makes a decision, and unfortunately the Spanish court system is extremely slow, so all you can do is wait and carry on paying for the OKupas utility expenses.

Yes I did call the Police, they did come to the apartment, they asked all the silly question, and they said to me "I'm sorry but we can't kick them out, you have to go to the courthouse and take it from there."

Be very careful, my humble advice is to only rent the place to tourists, in other words, short-term. Forget long-term rental.
Best thing you can do is get someone to do it for you, someone that does that professionally unless you have time to do it yourself. You can use your own website or go through booking.com or Airbnb.

If you decide to rent rooms or the whole apartment you are playing with fire, it's only a matter of time (Spain is the world capital of Okupas, plenty of people around poor countries are coming here just because they know they can live rent free endlessly, the OKupas in my apartment are from Romania.)

I know, it absolutely INSANE, and not being able to cut the water or the electricity is just the icing on the cake

Best of luck, I will be selling the apartment and that's it, no more communist Spain for me and my family (luckily it's a big world.)

I just pressed published and saw you read my mind . Damn! NGL. I got scared for a moment there!

 

[flyingadventures662]

Alright, well here I am...

I was renting a room to a guy in an apartment that I own (two bedroom apartment fully furnished) this SOB decided to give the keys of the apartment to a couple of his friends. The guy that was renting the room left, leaving the other two friends in the apartment. It's been now almost 2 year, I am paying for the utility bills (I'm not allowed to cut the power or the water supply as it is a crime and I would face 2 years in Prison for "coercion")
I'm also paying the community fees of course.

I think at least one more year before I the courthouse sends the police to kick them out.

Bottom line, Okupas are protected by Spanish law as you know, and the astonishing thing is that under the current Spanish law when you become an Okupa you're not violating any laws, in other words it is NOT a crime.
So one day they will have to leave the apartment free of any charges, and I will have lost a lot of money.

I'm in the process of leaving Spain for good, I could get into all the reasons behind my decision but there's no point, sadly the Socialist/Communist party has ruined the country, and as you may know they are about to stay in power for another 4 years.

The main problem is that you, as an owner, have no power other than going to the CourtHouse and wait until the judge makes a decision, and unfortunately the Spanish court system is extremely slow, so all you can do is wait and carry on paying for the OKupas utility expenses.

Yes I did call the Police, they did come to the apartment, they asked all the silly question, and they said to me "I'm sorry but we can't kick them out, you have to go to the courthouse and take it from there."

Be very careful, my humble advice is to only rent the place to tourists, in other words, short-term. Forget long-term rental.
Best thing you can do is get someone to do it for you, someone that does that professionally unless you have time to do it yourself. You can use your own website or go through booking.com or Airbnb.

If you decide to rent rooms or the whole apartment you are playing with fire, it's only a matter of time (Spain is the world capital of Okupas, plenty of people around poor countries are coming here just because they know they can live rent free endlessly, the OKupas in my apartment are from Romania.)

I know, it absolutely INSANE, and not being able to cut the water or the electricity is just the icing on the cake

Best of luck, I will be selling the apartment and that's it, no more communist Spain for me and my family (luckily it's a big world.)

Yes I am very well aware of the communism in Spain, I have spent quite some time there.

I am sorry for what happened to you and while I still don't swear it will not happen to me it looks quite different from my plan. I couldn't get it from your situation, while renting "a room" to another person, how came he invited other people in the home, were you living there in the same time or not? If yes, how did you allow that and do you keep living with them? If not, this is not renting a room, even if it was announced as such, because you gave access to the whole apartment to another person while you were absent - correct me if I am wrong.

AFAIK the best remedy for people in your unfortunate situation is to pay 5-10K to the company Desokupa which uses though guys and to get them thrown away the other way.

 

[Radko]

If my memory serves me correctly, you have a home in Spain that has some squatters in it.

It would be a tremendous PSA for you to write a "first-hand, first-account, boots-on-the-battleground-in-the-trenches" war story so gullible people can look back at your story and kick themselves in the arse AFTER Spain's reality brutally wakes them up from their Lalaland fantasy. Because we ALL know they will piss on that electric fence themselves, notwithstanding the fate of incredibly accomplished people e.g.
Leo Messi,
Cristiano Ronaldo,
Neymar,
Shakira,
and countless others with "the best political connections, political privileges, political influence, lobbyist, advisors, accountants, lawyers, etc. etc." money can buy.

Cheers!


I just pressed published and saw you read my mind . Damn! NGL. I got scared for a moment there!

Hey Jafo!
Feel free to start a new topic and I will comment based on my miserable experience.

But it is what it is, even though it's hard to understand until it happens to you.

When the police came they said "it will only take around 3 months to kick them out," I guess they were trying to calm things down, it wouldn't be such a big deal if it would only take 3 month, more like 3 years unless the OKupas get a lawyer (which they do very frequently) and claim themselves as "vulnerable people," meaning they have nowhere to go... in that case you'll have to wait until the Communist Spanish government finds a place to relocate them, but the government doesn't have apartments for these people, so they will leave them in your property for who knows how much longer until they finally kick them out.

I know a lady that sold her property, she collected the money from the buyer, and then she decided to stay in the property (yes after she sold it) and she's been there now for 5 years. It doesn't get more crazy than that!

Basically hard working people are paying the consequences of these communist laws.
The Spanish court system is broken, they can't keep up, so you as a victim have nothing to do but wait and keep paying.

The conservative party was promising to pass a new law so Okupas could be kicked out in 24 hours, but it doesn't look like the conservative party will be able to form a government (even though they won the elections.) So probably 4 more years of Communism in Spain, meaning 4 more years for Okupas to enjoy free rent & utilities.

Cheers!

(PS, Today Shakira was just charged for the second time. The first trial will take place in a months, she is facing 8 years of jail I think, but as always if she is convicted she will pay the money plus a fine and move on, at least until the second trial takes place. Spanish Hacienda will try to squeeze every single penny out of you, as we all know they don't care "pay up or go to jail.")

 

[wellington]

EURODOLLAR Credit event unfolding, wouldn't be touching anything except swiss property in Europe, oh and possibly 100yr austrian bonds (they are down 97%) = steal.

Only reason swiss property, the swaplines, bail out of credit suisse, and the currency loosing value 0.94-$ next, means property nominally will rise (hold value).

Rest of Europe doesn't have that luxury, been 10 yrs of a boom, and all owned by boomers who are dying off = property coming back to market reducing cost to acquisition.

Though did see a church for sale in Cornwall earlier 80k = seemed a bargain, sucks it would bring me into the UK tax orbit.

 

[12345]

No major european city is advised considering low yields, high taxes and state fees and socialist tenant protection laws
Maybe some sea resort in Montenegro?

 

[Radko]

Yes I am very well aware of the communism in Spain, I have spent quite some time there.

I am sorry for what happened to you and while I still don't swear it will not happen to me it looks quite different from my plan. I couldn't get it from your situation, while renting "a room" to another person, how came he invited other people in the home, were you living there in the same time or not? If yes, how did you allow that and do you keep living with them? If not, this is not renting a room, even if it was announced as such, because you gave access to the whole apartment to another person while you were absent - correct me if I am wrong.

AFAIK the best remedy for people in your unfortunate situation is to pay 5-10K to the company Desokupa which uses though guys and to get them thrown away the other way.

I was not living in the apartment. I just rented one room, and I had another person ready to rent the other room. So the OKupas have the whole apartment for themselves.

If let's say you have an apartment with 3 rooms, and you rent them individually, you will have to give the keys to the apartment to each person that rents a room (in the case of my apartment it's a gated community, so I had to give the guy keys to the apartment, keys to his room, and a password to get into the gated community.)

I did contact Desokupas, they told me they were too busy and I would have to wait... I'm still waiting (I'm in the south, Desokupas operates mainly in Madrid & Barcelona.)

This year some insurance companies are starting to offer "Okupas insurance" but from what I've heard there is a limit to how much money they will pay you in the event of being unfortunate like I was. You will have to do research about that, but if you can get insurance great for you.

Be careful, some Okupas are taking over apartments and then they are renting rooms, which is illegal. Then it gets very complicated (the OKupas in my apartment said to me that they are "renting" so I said "show me the contract" they said "it was a verbal contract" and they said the same to the police. It's all BS, I found out the guy that gave them a copy of the keys is the brother of one of the OKupas. Chances are when the police comes to kick them out they will have a similar excuse again, thus delaying the process even more.)

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

In Romania / Bulgaria you can get a nice place in that price range.

Or a few small flats.

Trade idea: As the West continues to decline tons of western euros will move east for lower cost of living, lower taxes (10% in both places which imo is a fair deal) and with them... their salaries will move too... so you can rent to them for a nice yield.

TLDR obviously, now do you due diligence and search for nice areas

The main problem is that you, as an owner, have no power other than going to the CourtHouse and wait until the judge makes a decision, and unfortunately the Spanish court system is extremely slow, so all you can do is wait and carry on paying for the OKupas utility expenses.

Another trade idea:

Rent to a friend of yours and get an insurance against non-payment. Now he has a place to live for free and you still get the money

 

[flyingadventures662]

In Romania / Bulgaria you can get a nice place in that price range.

Or a few small flats.

Trade idea: As the West continues to decline tons of western euros will move east for lower cost of living, lower taxes (10% in both places which imo is a fair deal) and with them... their salaries will move too... so you can rent to them for a nice yield.

TLDR obviously, now do you due diligence and search for nice areas



Another trade idea:

Rent to a friend of yours and get an insurance against non-payment. Now he has a place to live for free and you still get the money

As an OP, I must say I am from Bulgaria and I sold an apartment there to buy in Spain. In Sofia the rentability is within the lowest you could encounter in Europe. The one I sold was going to be paid by rent in around 30 years, I think these are the likes of UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc...

So I jumped on high risk/high reward in Spain but I am looking for something in the middle now.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

As an OP, I must say I am from Bulgaria and I sold an apartment there to buy in Spain. In Sofia the rentability is within the lowest you could encounter in Europe. The one I sold was going to be paid by rent in around 30 years, I think these are the likes of UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc...

So I jumped on high risk/high reward in Spain but I am looking for something in the middle now.

Do some renovations and make the flats 'western-like' and youll be able to rent them to western euros for a premium.
Every time I go to Bulgaria I cannot stop seeing weird bathrooms, same in Romania.

Varna is picking up for what I can see, and Timisoara/Cluj in RO.

Have you checked Austria? Not bad yields, however its got some of the West EU issues regarding renters laws and the like.

 

[Deepbarrels]

I was not living in the apartment. I just rented one room, and I had another person ready to rent the other room. So the OKupas have the whole apartment for themselves.

If let's say you have an apartment with 3 rooms, and you rent them individually, you will have to give the keys to the apartment to each person that rents a room (in the case of my apartment it's a gated community, so I had to give the guy keys to the apartment, keys to his room, and a password to get into the gated community.)

I did contact Desokupas, they told me they were too busy and I would have to wait... I'm still waiting (I'm in the south, Desokupas operates mainly in Madrid & Barcelona.)

This year some insurance companies are starting to offer "Okupas insurance" but from what I've heard there is a limit to how much money they will pay you in the event of being unfortunate like I was. You will have to do research about that, but if you can get insurance great for you.

Be careful, some Okupas are taking over apartments and then they are renting rooms, which is illegal. Then it gets very complicated (the OKupas in my apartment said to me that they are "renting" so I said "show me the contract" they said "it was a verbal contract" and they said the same to the police. It's all BS, I found out the guy that gave them a copy of the keys is the brother of one of the OKupas. Chances are when the police comes to kick them out they will have a similar excuse again, thus delaying the process even more.)

Can't you move in with a couple of big guys and change the lock when they're away? Throw all their s**t on the sidewalk? Rent next door and buy a drum set or put loud music 24/7?, make a hole in the wall and put smelly gas all day long. There's gotta be something semi-illegal but not enforceable that you can do.

 

[Radko]

Can't you move in with a couple of big guys and change the lock when they're away? Throw all their s**t on the sidewalk? Rent next door and buy a drum set or put loud music 24/7?, make a hole in the wall and put smelly gas all day long. There's gotta be something semi-illegal but not enforceable that you can do.

Great ideas, would love to be able to do all of them and many more, but you can't harass them, I would face coercion charges, punishable with up to 2 years in jail.
Squatters are protected by Spanish law, it's not even a crime to occupy a home in Spain. It's insane!

 

[Deepbarrels]

Great ideas, would love to be able to do all of them and many more, but you can't harass them, I would face coercion charges, punishable with up to 2 years in jail.
Squatters are protected by Spanish law, it's not even a crime to occupy a home in Spain. It's insane!

Can you try to re-occupy "their" appartment and use the law on your side? If you can't yourself, get someone to do it.