Concealing second citizenship from bank?

[Vor]

Perhaps this has been discussed on here before and hopefully someone can tell me why this idea is in fact stupid and wouldn't work. What is there to prevent someone or an American included from taking a second passport they have lets imagine they hold a Philippines passport and an American one hypothetically. They go into a bank in the Philippines and simply lie about the question pertaining to other nationalities and if their an American citizen. They open the account with their Philippines passport and tell the bank they live in the Philippines at XYZ address. They go to a bank in another jurisdiction and perform the same scheme providing the bank only with the Philippines passport and tell these banks they live in the Philippines rather than America.

Lets say they had their name changed on their Philippines passport also so it doesn't match their US passport.. wouldn't this be a way to avoid CRS/FATCA reporting effectively? How would the bank catch this? How would they know about other citizenships they are not informed about? Is there anything I am missing here?

 

[Golden Fleece]

Perhaps this has been discussed on here before and hopefully someone can tell me why this idea is in fact stupid and wouldn't work. What is there to prevent someone or an American included from taking a second passport they have lets imagine they hold a Philippines passport and an American one hypothetically. They go into a bank in the Philippines and simply lie about the question pertaining to other nationalities and if their an American citizen. They open the account with their Philippines passport and tell the bank they live in the Philippines at XYZ address. They go to a bank in another jurisdiction and perform the same scheme providing the bank only with the Philippines passport and tell these banks they live in the Philippines rather than America.

Lets say they had their name changed on their Philippines passport also so it doesn't match their US passport.. wouldn't this be a way to avoid CRS/FATCA reporting effectively? How would the bank catch this? How would they know about other citizenships they are not informed about? Is there anything I am missing here?

First, depending on the laws of the nation, such an act (if there is a question about dual citizenship) may constitute bank fraud.

Second, all passports (except perhaps Switzerland) have your place of birth listed on the passport. If born in the U.S., then even the Philippines passport will list your U.S. birthplace. This is considered as an "indicia" of U.S. citizenship under FATCA, which must be reported. Having said that, many banks are lax about such reporting.

 

[Allisgood]

First, depending on the laws of the nation, such an act (if there is a question about dual citizenship) may constitute bank fraud.

Second, all passports (except perhaps Switzerland) have your place of birth listed on the passport. If born in the U.S., then even the Philippines passport will list your U.S. birthplace. This is considered as an "indicia" of U.S. citizenship under FATCA, which must be reported. Having said that, many banks are lax about such reporting.

Many European passports just mention the city of birth. No country. So if you are born in some lesser known city (that’s different from your passport country) it’s not always right away obvious which your country of birth is. Some European countries also use their national naming conventions for foreign cities. So a city may be written in your passport that cannot even easily be googled because it’s the passport country’s way of spelling/writing that foreign city.

 

[Mark Rucken]

Many European passports just mention the city of birth. No country. So if you are born in some lesser known city (that’s different from your passport country) it’s not always right away obvious which your country of birth is. Some European countries also use their national naming conventions for foreign cities. So a city may be written in your passport that cannot even easily be googled because it’s the passport country’s way of spelling/writing that foreign city.

You gotta be joking, right? Every sane person would be able to find country of birth based on the city written in passport, not to mention compliance departments of banks.

 

[Allisgood]

Not in my experience with some cities that I have seen. Bank staff just put the passport country straight away. They often don’t think/check that the birth city is in a different country.

Of course you should correct them then.

And as mentioned you would be surprised how the spellings are of same cities in different languages/countries (in Europe). Some cities are written totally different. Also many small villages can exist in multiple countries.

Sure if you are born in London or Paris or Berlin it’s super obvious but there are tens of thousands of villages/cities.

Let’s take some larger cities. Bordeaux is in French but it would be written Bordeus in Portuguese. You think anyone will know it’s Bordeaux if it’s written in a Portuguese passport as Bordeus ? Of course in Portugal they would know. But not in any other European country.

Marseille is French but would be written Marsella in Spanish.
If you show that passport in a 3rd European country, they wouldn’t know where Marsella is.
Of course some European countries do put the country behind the place of birth, then it’s obvious. But many do not.

 

[khinkali]

Given the investment in technology and manpower, I really don't think you're going to evade the IRS with Bordeaux/Bordeus. Nor with a name variation. Refinitiv, Accuity, Rosette, etc. are paid a lot of $$$s by government agencies to catch name variations. For example this is from Rosette:

If the Feds never look for you, then they won't find your PH bank account. Hence all the "cash out in Dubai" threads, you use local id with a local bank and that's it. But there's a lot more EOI than FATCA/CRS and if the Feds do go looking for you they have methods we don't even know about.

 

[Allisgood]

Given the investment in technology and manpower, I really don't think you're going to evade the IRS with Bordeaux/Bordeus. Nor with a name variation. Refinitiv, Accuity, Rosette, etc. are paid a lot of $$$s by government agencies to catch name variations. For example this is from Rosette:
View attachment 2707


If the Feds never look for you, then they won't find your PH bank account. Hence all the "cash out in Dubai" threads, you use local id with a local bank and that's it. But there's a lot more EOI than FATCA/CRS and if the Feds do go looking for you they have methods we don't even know about.

What I have experienced was unrelated to IRS and did not involve any US citizens. Only EU-citizen related. And I am not encouraging any evasion here. Just know from experience that bank staff often enter the most obvious birth country and don’t consider that the person could have been born somewhere else.

 

[Vor]

First, depending on the laws of the nation, such an act (if there is a question about dual citizenship) may constitute bank fraud.

Second, all passports (except perhaps Switzerland) have your place of birth listed on the passport. If born in the U.S., then even the Philippines passport will list your U.S. birthplace. This is considered as an "indicia" of U.S. citizenship under FATCA, which must be reported. Having said that, many banks are lax about such reporting.

I mean under this scenario I was assuming your a criminal tax evader so bank fraud is just another felony to add to the list lolol. Great point about the country of birth being on the passport this is something I had overlooked already poking holes in my theory about how this could/would work. An interesting wrinkle to add to this would be if the person had renounced the prior nationality so lets make this a little more complex.

Person A has a EU and Philippines passport. Their Philippines passport lists they were born in Chicago USA however they provide the bank with a proof of loss of nationality showing they are in fact no longer a US person and subject to FATCA. They lie and tell the PH bank they only have PH citizenship and reside in the Philippines how will the bank discover the EU passport when their country of birth was the US not the EU country and this passport was relinquished. Their Philippines passport now has no mention of their EU passport via place of birth, instead just America which they showed the bank they no longer are a citizen of and claim they soley have a PH passport. How could/would say Sweden then catch this person committing tax evasion?

 

[Golden Fleece]

I mean under this scenario I was assuming your a criminal tax evader so bank fraud is just another felony to add to the list lolol.

How could/would say Sweden then catch this person committing tax evasion?

Well, you are now blatantly discussing how to successfully engage in criminal activity, which is prohibited by the rules of the forum. So, no there is no need to take the discussion any further. That is not the purpose of this forum.

My input stemmed from the standpoint of maximizing privacy, if legal.

 

[Vor]

Well, you are now blatantly discussing how to successfully engage in criminal activity, which is prohibited by the rules of the forum. So, no there is no need to take the discussion any further. That is not the purpose of this forum.

My input stemmed from the standpoint of maximizing privacy, if legal.

I do not really see the harm of discussing a CRS loophole in the theoretical if this breaks forum rules I'm sure admin will remove it. The reason I stated im assuming your a criminal tax evader so bank fraud is just another felony to add to the list isn't because im saying I support doing this but that REALITY is someone looking to avoid CRS reporting is already looking to engage in tax evasion so I kinda doubt this person is gonna go oh crap they got me at this check box. Asking if the bank would know to report an undisclosed nationality under CRS is a lot more timid than the UAE discussion on here lol.