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Marc Rich

Mentor Group Gold
From personal experience (a few Golden Visa investor friends), I think Portugal could also work out. Basically get in on the Golden Visa route. From what I have heard they used to be fairly flexible on the source of funds. Maybe are still...

Also, maybe by now you can somehow find Portuguese lawyers who can help you use the crypto for the 300-500k investment.
You get residency that way and then long term crypto holdings should be tax free in Portugal (again you should check this with a few local lawyers). Unless someone has direct experience here ?

As you want to get into the EU anyways you could skip 1 year (Dubai) right away and be on a 6 year path to citizenship already. Then move to any other EU country you want after you naturalise.

Of course this depends if you can convert the crypto into the Golden Visa and they accept your source of funds. But you could confirm this with some local lawyers I am sure.

Dubai setup seems great, but if Portugal works you could save some time overall.
Regard Portuguese lawyer, I have a great one. If someone needs - can PM me and I will gladly pass along her details. Have recommended to a few golden visa investor friends, and they have all been satisfied with her.
 

Allisgood

New member
The EU actively fight against gold visas if we see to the Cyprus, Malta, etc.
So the person from risky country, who got the gold visa with crypto SOF could easily be under investigation in some future with risk for recall this Visa.
Also don't forget, that OP should cashout first this money as a tax resident of his country. Without ability to do it properly. Only after it go and apply to visa with investing in Portugal.

If Portugal will accept direct crypto as investing purpose, it would be some crypto boom according it, because this way of investing available only in some banana islands for a now :)
I get your point. But OP would only need to legitimise a much smaller amount. They and their spouse can claim they earned this 300k via their job (over many years) and supplement any unexplained amount but for example “sale of apartment” or “inheritance”. Even if it never happened. They (PT) basically want your investment in their property and they may just accept this reason without a massive investigation into the real source of the 300k. That is what I have heard. But this was maybe 3 years back so maybe the due diligence has become stricter now.
 

John Spectre

Entrepreneur
I get your point. But OP would only need to legitimise a much smaller amount. They and their spouse can claim they earned this 300k via their job (over many years) and supplement any unexplained amount but for example “sale of apartment” or “inheritance”. Even if it never happened. They (PT) basically want your investment in their property and they may just accept this reason without a massive investigation into the real source of the 300k. That is what I have heard. But this was maybe 3 years back so maybe the due diligence has become stricter now.
My friend, you probably don't know what mean to pass due diligence with high risk country passport :)
Nobody will believe you until to prove for them documents in style all they want. Don't even think to try fabricate that you can't prove with docs - you hesitate and they will throw you.
If you claim job income - they will ask for payslips for all years, tax certificate for all years, they will calculate your spending's with all these years and will ask for bank statements for all this years. Ah, don't forget about sanctions. They will check your employer, and if it don't like for them (for example surname of some executive will be same to the surname of some sanctioned person) - you will be kicked :)
And only after all this things, if your bank accounts balance will exceed 300k you could continue. In other way - no no no. Even if you withdraw money from bank account to paper cash and then deposit again - compliance will not perceive this money. And I could say, that in country of OP residence not many people hold money in bank in such sum, they use paper cash.

Personally I got this situation with Cyprus few years ago. And I don't believe from that time situation became easier.
5-10 years ago, yes, it was much more simple. But not now.
West Europe is too much scare of money from east Europe, so it's a much more easy to reject person, that got some theoretical problems because of it.
 
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John Spectre

Entrepreneur
Just to clarify and in order to avoid people being misinformed - The golden visa is very different to the golden passport. In Cyprus in did there was an issue with the golden passport (citizenship by investment) which is no longer available. On the other hand, Golden Visa (permanent residence scheme) had no issues, is still available and has even been improved recently (with investment scope expanded to cover more than just property investments). With the permanent residence you can get citizenship after 5 years. Also, the permanent residence can be achieved with an investment around EURO 300,000 .
You are right about golden visa/passport difference.
But, actually if stick to the topic, both of cyprus visa/passports programs are not directly available to crypto wealthy people from east europe without schemes of hiding that money from crypto and appease cyprus banks with compliance :)
 

Allisgood

New member
My friend, you probably don't know what mean to pass due diligence with high risk country passport :)
Nobody will believe you until to prove for them documents in style all they want. Don't even think to try fabricate that you can't prove with docs - you hesitate and they will throw you.
If you claim job income - they will ask for payslips for all years, tax certificate for all years, they will calculate your spending's with all these years and will ask for bank statements for all this years. Ah, don't forget about sanctions. They will check your employer, and if it don't like for them (for example surname of some executive will be same to the surname of some sanctioned person) - you will be kicked :)
And only after all this things, if your bank accounts balance will exceed 300k you could continue. In other way - no no no. Even if you withdraw money from bank account to paper cash and then deposit again - compliance will not perceive this money. And I could say, that in country of OP residence not many people hold money in bank in such sum, they use paper cash.

Personally I got this situation with Cyprus few years ago. And I don't believe from that time situation became easier.
5-10 years ago, yes, it was much more simple. But not now.
West Europe is too much scare of money from east Europe, so it's a much more easy to reject to persona, that got some problems because of it.
what's the nationality ? did OP say it is a high risk country ? I saw only:

2) I live in a third-world country which means owning significant amount of money in crypto could attract some unwanted attention. Eastern Europe country.

If high risk yes probably won't work but it all depends on which one.
 

CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
You are right about golden visa/passport difference.
But, actually if stick to the topic, both of cyprus visa/passports programs are not directly available to crypto wealthy people from east europe without schemes of hiding that money from crypto and appease cyprus banks with compliance :)
This is not actually the case,
You are right about golden visa/passport difference.
But, actually if stick to the topic, both of cyprus visa/passports programs are not directly available to crypto wealthy people from east europe without schemes of hiding that money from crypto and appease cyprus banks with compliance :)
The golden passport scheme required 150,000 to be paid to the government as an investment, together with a 2.5mln investment, in this case there would be an issue with the source of funds. However, I note the following:

(a) The requirements for the permanent residence scheme are substantially different, hence, the payment can be made in crypto (it will be converted into FIAT first through an EMI).

(b) Crypto Assets have now been implemented to the Cyprus AML Law, so there is nothing 'illegal'.

(c) Developers in Cyprus have started being open to accepting crypto payments.
 

John Spectre

Entrepreneur
what's the nationality ? did OP say it is a high risk country ? I saw only:

2) I live in a third-world country which means owning significant amount of money in crypto could attract some unwanted attention. Eastern Europe country.

If high risk yes probably won't work but it all depends on which one.
Please name at least *one* third-world country from east Europe who is *not* high risk according to FATF/EU and other organizations who made this division.

Sure, if you will treat Poland or Latvia as a third-world country - probably you will be right :)

This is not actually the case,

(a) The requirements for the permanent residence scheme are substantially different, hence, the payment can be made in crypto (it will be converted into FIAT first through an EMI).
1. Could you prove it with laws? AFAIK crypto is not regulated in Cyprus at this moment, so it's a question if it could be or not.
2. Please name at least 1 EMI who will allow you to transfer 150k/300k EUR per payment.

(b) Crypto Assets have now been implemented to the Cyprus AML Law, so there is nothing 'illegal'.
Please name at least 1 cyprus bank who will accept east europe passport holder with crypto SOF as a client.

(c) Developers in Cyprus have started being open to accepting crypto payments.
If so, it really cool. Could you name few? I'm interesting if it really possible, to make such investments directly with crypto.
But no TRNC please.
 
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CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
Please name at least *one* third-world country from east Europe who is *not* high risk according to FATF/EU and other organizations who made this division.

Sure, if you will treat Poland or Latvia as a third-world country - probably you will be right :)





1. Could you prove it with laws? AFAIK crypto is not regulated in Cyprus at this moment, so it's a question if it could be or not.
2. Please name at least 1 EMI who will allow you to transfer 150k/300k EUR per payment.
Cryptos are now regulated for AML purposes as of 18/2/2021, through the transposition of AMLD5. We are actually waiting for CySEC to prepare the forms where Crypto Asset Service Providers will be registering in the CASP Register, which should be available within April.

Payments can be through Cyprus or foreign EMIs or crypto exchange platforms. I note that there are universities and event hospitals in Cyprus that accept crypto payments, such as the University of Nicosia.
Please name at least 1 cyprus bank who will accept east europe passport holder with crypto SOF as a client.
The payment will be made to the developer in FIAT. In the event that the client wants to open a personal account then it will have to be an EMI or a foreign bank/emi.
If so, it really cool. Could you name few? I'm interesting if it really possible, to make such investments directly with crypto.
I would prefer not to name particular developers, I have collaborated with at least 2 who accept this. As indicated above we have universities, restaurants etc that accept bitcoin. This is public you can even check this online.

If you are indeed interested in investing I would be happy to discuss further.
 

cryptoholic

New member
what's the nationality ? did OP say it is a high risk country ? I saw only:

2) I live in a third-world country which means owning significant amount of money in crypto could attract some unwanted attention. Eastern Europe country.

If high risk yes probably won't work but it all depends on which one.
The country is UA. You can visit schengen area visa-free but I still do believe that the country is considered as high-risk.

If the country will declare low taxes on crypto it won't solve the issue bc declaring any substantial wealth in our country won't guarantee you any safety.
 

Allisgood

New member
The country is UA. You can visit schengen area visa-free but I still do believe that the country is considered as high-risk.

If the country will declare low taxes on crypto it won't solve the issue bc declaring any substantial wealth in our country won't guarantee you any safety.

In that case you could also look into Poland. Poland is very Ukraine-friendly and most newly naturalised citizens are Ukrainian.
Yes taxes are very high but I believe you could get residency there easily as an Ukrainian (check with lawyers etc).

In order to naturalise in Poland language is key (and it's a hard language), and if you speak Ukrainian you can easily learn Polish as the languages are very similar. Could be as low as 3 years but again you should check how many years you need to wait. Not more than 5.
But this is probably more if you have the time and are not in a hurry.

Then get the citizenship and move to another EU country with more favourable crypto taxation a few years later. thu&¤#
 

John Spectre

Entrepreneur
Cryptos are now regulated for AML purposes as of 18/2/2021, through the transposition of AMLD5. We are actually waiting for CySEC to prepare the forms where Crypto Asset Service Providers will be registering in the CASP Register, which should be available within April.

Payments can be through Cyprus or foreign EMIs or crypto exchange platforms. I note that there are universities and event hospitals in Cyprus that accept crypto payments, such as the University of Nicosia.

Again - we talk about reality how to pass crypto SOF and send money to Cyprus directly.
Banks don't allow it - so it no way.

The payment will be made to the developer in FIAT. In the event that the client wants to open a personal account then it will have to be an EMI or a foreign bank/emi.

The simple requirement that for this visa local bank account is required can't be done for crypto people and all scheme can't work as is?
Looking for crypto friendly bank is main concern on the topic.
If you suggest Cyprus as a investment advice with visa for OP and at same time saying about foreign bank - sorry, but it didn't helped much.
If OP will figure out how to legally cashout his crypto to some bank, he sure will be free to invest and pay to any place in the world, even in Cyprus, Spain, etc. But all this will be AFTER cashout process.

I would prefer not to name particular developers, I have collaborated with at least 2 who accept this. As indicated above we have universities, restaurants etc that accept bitcoin. This is public you can even check this online.

If you are indeed interested in investing I would be happy to discuss further.
Are they work illegal so you can't tell the names? As I said in previous message - I'm quite interested in investing if everything is clear from the side of developers/laws and they are not just a scam, which is not rare thing in development area in Cyprus.
 

John Spectre

Entrepreneur
In that case you could also look into Poland. Poland is very Ukraine-friendly and most newly naturalised citizens are Ukrainian.
Yes taxes are very high but I believe you could get residency there easily as an Ukrainian (check with lawyers etc).

In order to naturalise in Poland language is key (and it's a hard language), and if you speak Ukrainian you can easily learn Polish as the languages are very similar. Could be as low as 3 years but again you should check how many years you need to wait. Not more than 5.
But this is probably more if you have the time and are not in a hurry.

Then get the citizenship and move to another EU country with more favourable crypto taxation a few years later. thu&¤#
Sorry, what a sense in relocation to poland, pay taxes there for few years, naturalize and again move to another desired EU county?
As for me it's a overcomplicated and long thing without some actual benefits.

Comparing to UAE, where you don't need to pay taxes, when you need to stay only 1 year Poland much harder way.
 

CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
Again - we talk about reality how to pass crypto SOF and send money to Cyprus directly.
Banks don't allow it - so it no way.



The simple requirement that for this visa local bank account is required can't be done for crypto people and all scheme can't work as is?
Looking for crypto friendly bank is main concern on the topic.
If you suggest Cyprus as a investment advice with visa for OP and at same time saying about foreign bank - sorry, but it didn't helped much.
If OP will figure out how to legally cashout his crypto to some bank, he sure will be free to invest and pay to any place in the world, even in Cyprus, Spain, etc. But all this will be AFTER cashout process.


Are they work illegal so you can't tell the names? As I said in previous message - I'm quite interested in investing if everything is clear from the side of developers/laws and they are not just a scam, which is not rare thing in development area in Cyprus.
As I said you can check the universities etc that accept bitcoin payments. These can be exchanged to fiat by a crypto-exchange eg bitpay, it works fine for the University of Nicosia and the other organisations I have mentioned.

With respect to developers, I just don't want to advertise anyone publicly especially since more could be willing to accept payments, especially having in mind that they could get their payment in FIAT through a crypto exchange.
 

John Spectre

Entrepreneur
As I said you can check the universities etc that accept bitcoin payments. These can be exchanged to fiat by a crypto-exchange eg bitpay, it works fine for the University of Nicosia and the other organisations I have mentioned.

Sorry, again, but payment to university have 0 sense in discussion of investment to Cyprus, cashout of OP and other question topped up here.
Okay, university accept bitcoins. So what? How it help OP with his problem? He come to BoC or Hellenic and say to the manager: "i'm from ukraine, open account for me please, your university accept bitcoins, so please accept my crypto too?" :D
BTW you don't mentioned 'organisations' here. you mentioned only UoN :)

With respect to developers, I just don't want to advertise anyone publicly especially since more could be willing to accept payments, especially having in mind that they could get their payment in FIAT through a crypto exchange.
Could you pm me names of that?
 

CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
Sorry, again, but payment to university have 0 sense in discussion of investment to Cyprus, cashout of OP and other question topped up here.
Okay, university accept bitcoins. So what? How it help OP with his problem? He come to BoC or Hellenic and say to the manager: "i'm from ukraine, open account for me please, your university accept bitcoins, so please accept my crypto too?" :D
BTW you don't mentioned 'organisations' here. you mentioned only UoN :)


Could you pm me names of that?
The payment will be made to a crypto exchange wallet - the crypto will be converted and the developer will be paid.

Of course I can pm you.
 

Allisgood

New member
Sorry, what a sense in relocation to poland, pay taxes there for few years, naturalize and again move to another desired EU county?
As for me it's a overcomplicated and long thing without some actual benefits.

Comparing to UAE, where you don't need to pay taxes, when you need to stay only 1 year Poland much harder way.
Dubai setup is ok. But OP wants to live in the EU. So after Dubai setup he still needs EU residency or (better) an EU passport.

In my opinion the EU citizenship should be the ultimate goal here. Only that gives you the flexibility to try out multiple countries in the EU. And why overpay if you don't have to.

Potential paths to get EU citizenship after Dubai setup:

Malta
Malta Golden Visa: 15 years to citizenship so forget about it. Who can live in Malta this long.
or - Buy Malta passport outright, expensive, potentially very heavy due diligence. Not worth the money IMO. But could be an option after Dubai setup.

Cyprus
Cyprus Golden Visa: Maybe 8 years but you need Greek language skills (difficult to learn) and depends on a final interview where anything can happen. Some bureaucrat can just reject you. Process generally not very transparent and probably an additional 3 years waiting time after the 8 years. Also I think you have to be present in Cyprus 365 days in the last year or something weird like that.
So process is 11 years, doesn't seem very reliable, but would be happy to hear about anyone who was naturalised this way.
I am not saying it's not possible, but its long and not guaranteed even.

Portugal Golden Visa: 6 years with language skills, I know people who have done it, so it works. I would tend to say more or less guaranteed if you know what you are doing.
Could maybe even work without Dubai setup for OP, as EU is Ukraine-friendly these days. Definitely worth to check with lawyers there.

Finally Poland could work as mentioned above for this very specific case (UA citizenship). Many many Ukrainians there, safe and affordable country, AND track record to naturalise Ukrainians (more than half of all naturalisations). Similar language, so Ukrainians are probably the only people who can easily naturalise in Poland due to the difficult language requirement. Slow yes. But doable. I would say 4-5 years to passport here but would have to be checked too.

Then move to Portugal (no crypto tax for long term holdings, or no crypto tax at all), Germany (no crypto tax after holding 1 year).
Cash out legally.
 
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CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
Cyprus
Cyprus Golden Visa: Maybe 8 years but you need Greek language skills (difficult to learn) and depends on a final interview where anything can happen. Some bureaucrat can just reject you. Process generally not very transparent and probably an additional 3 years waiting time after the 8 years. Also I think you have to be present in Cyprus 365 days in the last year or something weird like that.
So process is 11 years, doesn't seem very reliable, but would be happy to hear about anyone who was naturalised this way.
I am not saying it's not possible, but its long and not guaranteed even.
Hi, the information about Cyprus citizenship is actually wrong. You need to show that you have lived in Cyprus for a period of 5 years within a period of 7 years. Indeed the last year prior to the application you must show that you've lived in Cyprus (this of course does not stop you from going away for sometime it doesn't have to be strictly 365 days as you suggest).

There is no language requirement. Of course knowing Greek would be an advantage but there is no such requirement.

The procedure is very transparent, it's a fixed set of questions about Cyprus.
 

tsu458

New member
Cryptos are now regulated for AML purposes as of 18/2/2021, through the transposition of AMLD5. We are actually waiting for CySEC to prepare the forms where Crypto Asset Service Providers will be registering in the CASP Register, which should be available within April. (...)

Hi CyprusLaw, will that change / clarifiy the handling of personal captial gains tax for crypto too? I think this is important for crypto traders and holders when considering moving to cyprus. It's very unclear if you would pay 20% capital gains tax as a non-dom, on multi-year longterm crypto holdings. I know currently it's recommended to use a Ltd to liquidate longterm holdings but the access to banking is still bad. :confused:
 

CyprusLaw

Mentor Group Gold
Hi CyprusLaw, will that change / clarifiy the handling of personal captial gains tax for crypto too? I think this is important for crypto traders and holders when considering moving to cyprus. It's very unclear if you would pay 20% capital gains tax as a non-dom, on multi-year longterm crypto holdings. I know currently it's recommended to use a Ltd to liquidate longterm holdings but the access to banking is still bad. :confused:
There is no CGT on cryptos in Cyprus. With respect to the taxation of cryptocurrencies these will fall under the same tax principles as with any other business activities and a tax rate of 12.5% will apply.

This in fact the case as no legal definition was attributed to cryptocurrencies in Cyprus Tax legislation. Thus no clarification exists whether cryptocurrencies are securities (“titles”), currency or a digital asset. The accounting practice (IFRS) considers cryptocurrencies as either inventory or intangible assets, and as the the tax practice usually follows the accounting practice, inventories/intangible assets are part of the normal business operations which are taxed at 12.5%.

We do not expect the above to change prior to the enactment of the MiCA EU Regulation, so 2024 at the earliest.
 

12345

Active Member
Finally Poland could work as mentioned above for this very specific case (UA citizenship). Many many Ukrainians there, safe and affordable country, AND track record to naturalise Ukrainians (more than half of all naturalisations). Similar language, so Ukrainians are probably the only people who can easily naturalise in Poland due to the difficult language requirement. Slow yes. But doable. I would say 4-5 years to passport here but would have to be checked too.

Yes I can confirm that Poland especially Warsaw is filled with Ukrainians not only cheap labour but high end too and language is easy to learn for them

I am not very experienced with international banking but polish passport should look more trustworthy to banks or businesseses than maltese/cypriot/UAE

I have checked and there are 2 options to obtain polish citizenship

1. (around 60% of naturalizations) Provincial office - 12 years and B1 polish language knowledge
2. (around 40 % of naturalizations) President's office - There are no specific requirements (I've read that B1 polish is highy adviced). If you get rejected you can apply again

Ukrainians amount to ~55 % of all naturalizations

Option 2. flexibility might be advantageous if you can afford good lawyer, be able to attach reference letters from various organizations showing that you support polish culture etc, having some even distant polish ancestors would be awasome. Lack of transparency is big problem, it would not be fun to put in a lot of effort and end up getting rejected

OP could contact law firms specialized in dealing with immigrants / expats, explain his situation and see if they can offer any solutions that worked in the past

I found this for example

If they can't offer anything specific Poland is not the best choice considering high taxes

In order to naturalise in Poland language is key (and it's a hard language), and if you speak Ukrainian you can easily learn Polish as the languages are very similar. Could be as low as 3 years but again you should check how many years you need to wait. Not more than 5.

"not more than 5"
Where did you find this information? Maybe I am missing something
 
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