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khinkali

Silver Member
$0 BTC is a funny concept. There are plenty of people who would buy up all available BTC at the right price. There are fewer than 21,000,000.

you can't pay rent in crypto if there would be no exchange into fiat.Fiat is the currency which is accepted not crypto.Crypto can be only used as there are currently instant exchanges into fiat

If either party values their wealth in some fiat currency, then of course you are right the crypto is converted at one end or the other.

However, some people do transact in crypto with no fiat involvement. This happens when both parties value their wealth in crypto. There are people with piles of ETH that they bought at $0.31 and there are people who bought piles of BTC when it was <$250. They don't need to convert to fiat or calculate some fiat pretend value of their transaction. They can transact in either of their native currencies and convert between them without ever caring about USD.

I believe that exactly the same will happen between RUB and CNY. No need to "dollarise" everything. It's taken 51 years since Nixon accelerated the dollar's debasement, but finally the world is moving on.
 

369

Entrepreneur
$0 BTC is a funny concept. There are plenty of people who would buy up all available BTC at the right price. There are fewer than 21,000,000.



If either party values their wealth in some fiat currency, then of course you are right the crypto is converted at one end or the other.

However, some people do transact in crypto with no fiat involvement. This happens when both parties value their wealth in crypto. There are people with piles of ETH that they bought at $0.31 and there are people who bought piles of BTC when it was <$250. They don't need to convert to fiat or calculate some fiat pretend value of their transaction. They can transact in either of their native currencies and convert between them without ever caring about USD.

I believe that exactly the same will happen between RUB and CNY. No need to "dollarise" everything. It's taken 51 years since Nixon accelerated the dollar's debasement, but finally the world is moving on.
theoraticly gargabe.........btc would never receive its price without the instant exchange to fiat.
Have a look what happened when mtgox went down.
Governments would just need to ban crypto-fiat gateways and crypto would lose 95% of its value.
 

backpacker

Entrepreneur
I believe that exactly the same will happen between RUB and CNY. No need to "dollarise" everything.
This is already happening.
It was one of the countermeasures Russia took as a result of Western sanctions during the first Ukraine crisis in 2014. Even with Egypt such an agreement exists and is mostly used in the tourism industry.

Have a look what happened when mtgox went down.
... a badly managed exchange gone rogue in the early days of crypto. Nothing special hear.

The Tay Bridge Disaster of 1879 was also a result of poor construction and badly managed railroad traffic. That did not mean that after this disaster trains stopped at both sides of the Tay and people started using boats to cross it. They just learnt from their own mistakes, built a more robust bridge and regulated railroad traffic in a sense making way.

The way to a better future: Innovate -> Improve -> Regulate!
 
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369

Entrepreneur
This is already happening.
It was one of the countermeasures Russia took as a result of Western sanctions during the first Ukraine crisis in 2014. Even with Egypt such an agreement exists and is mostly used in the tourism industry.


... a badly managed exchange gone rogue in the early days of crypto. Nothing special hear.

The Tay Bridge Disaster of 1879 was also a result of poor construction and badly managed railroad traffic. That did not mean that after this disaster trains stopped at both sides of the Tay and people started using boats to cross it. They just learnt from their own mistakes, built a more robust bridge and regulated railroad traffic in a sense making way.

The way to a better future: Innovate -> Improve -> Regulate!
the solution crypto-fiat went down but you dont get it
 

Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
  • What is important: That overall volatility comes down in order for BTC to be taken seriously ... (... as a store of value, which it currently is not).
Finally, you hit the nail on the head. This is the problem. This is exactly why Bitcoin is not real money.

In fact, based on its original concept, if you read the original concept papers, it is an unmitigated disaster. Bitcoin will only survive in the long-run if it becomes real money. To do that, its volatility must stabilize.

The odds of that happening are not great, but it is within the realm of the possible.

Governments would just need to ban crypto-fiat gateways and crypto would lose 95% of its value.
That is correct. (1) Make crypto ownership illegal; (2) Ban the gateways; (3) Make the use of any crypto into an automatic money-laundering crime. Then 99% of the population, and none of the institutional investors, would touch crypto. Only criminal enterprises would use it, making its value plummet.

I am not saying that this will happen, only that it would be simple for government to do (once all the typical scare tactics are employed). All the deluded folks on this forum who believe that COVID mRNA vaccines are safe, that masks work, and that this was really a true pandemic prove that most people (even professed "free-thinkers") believe the government -- despite easily verified, well-established scientific facts. By contrast, banning cryptos would be an extremely easy sell to the public.
 
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369

Entrepreneur
This is already happening.
It was one of the countermeasures Russia took as a result of Western sanctions during the first Ukraine crisis in 2014. Even with Egypt such an agreement exists and is mostly used in the tourism industry.


... a badly managed exchange gone rogue in the early days of crypto. Nothing special hear.

The Tay Bridge Disaster of 1879 was also a result of poor construction and badly managed railroad traffic. That did not mean that after this disaster trains stopped at both sides of the Tay and people started using boats to cross it. They just learnt from their own mistakes, built a more robust bridge and regulated railroad traffic in a sense making way.

The way to a better future: Innovate -> Improve -> Regulate!
it happened already between china and russia.There is no more usd

Finally, you hit the nail on the head. This is the problem. This is exactly why Bitcoin is not real money.

In fact, based on its original concept, if you read the original concept papers, it is an unmitigated disaster. Bitcoin will only survive in the long-run if it becomes real money. To do that, its volatility must stabilize.

The odds of that happening are not great, but it is within the realm of the possible.


That is correct. (1) Make crypto ownership illegal; (2) Ban the gateways; (3) Make the use of any crypto into an automatic money-laundering crime. Then 99% of the population, and none of the institutional investors, would touch crypto. Only criminal enterprises would use it, making its value plummet.

I am not saying that this will happen, only that it would be simple for government to do (once all the typical scare tactics are employed). All the deluded folks on this forum who believe that COVID mRNA vaccines are safe, that masks work, and that this was really a true pandemic prove that most people (even professed "free-thinkers") believe the government -- despite easily verified, well-established scientific facts. By contrast, banning cryptos would be an extremely easy sell to the public.
it doesn't need to happen.people should first look who accumulated bitcoin 2009-2012 and who is till today playing the accumulation distribution game.
A hint it was JPM with reports showing they logged already 2010 50 times daily into crypto exchanges.

Its the same game accumulate cheap ,create a market and distrubute.
In their 2011 report they said they want a quick 2000% gain from bitcoin but something happened in 2013 which was not planned and which caused to keep bitcoin running till today as CNY needed time to prepare for getting a world reserve currency.

A nice example for accumulation and distribution is NKLA .The bank got the job for distribution and created a hype arround NKLA which price went up from $2 to $90 and people joined because of greed to make a quick buck.They bought NKLA from $20-90 .Once the dirstribution finished price went down to $40 later $25 and today $7 a drop over 90% from its top
 
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313

New member
Governments would just need to ban crypto-fiat gateways and crypto would lose 95% of its value.
lol
That is correct. (1) Make crypto ownership illegal; (2) Ban the gateways; (3) Make the use of any crypto into an automatic money-laundering crime.
This will only make it rise higher and higher.

---

Bitcoin is the last self-sovereign and decentralised form of wealth ever found in history. At least before the end of the 21st century, or end of life, there will never be anything like Bitcoin.

Don't listen to these selfish entrepreneurs and their manipulated myths; read "Bitcoin Standard" by Dr. Saifedean Ammous and find the logic behind it by yourself.

The beginning of it starts at the end✌️


Remember that they don't dare to ban Bitcoin since it's a highly speculative decision; at the very least, they can use people like you to stifle its growth before attempting a sideways takeover.
 
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JohnnyDoe

Schrödinger's guy
Mentor Group Gold
Meanwhile BTC +10%. SWIFT can be blocked, bank accounts can be blocked, btc cannot.
 

369

Entrepreneur
what a bunch of garbage.....
if you can't exchange btc into fiat easily majority will leave bitcoin.It won't be accepted nearly anywhere.No ATM's no localbitcoin no bank transfer no nothing.
The next garbage is that bitcoin is decentralized and secure.
Since when ?You know how easily it would be for governments to run a 51% attack on bitcoin taking full control of everyone assets ?
in 2011 FBI already reported that they can trace 98% of all transaction to real owners and that the left 2% will be implemented via 3rd parties aka exchanges and services.
So who you wanna escape from with your s**t bitcoin.
Make your money on bitcon but stop spreading the fud that bitcoin is a realistic alternative

and to 313 what have you drunk ?You destroy structor of a coin and you think price will go higher ?What garbage have you read from shillers
JPM can tank bitcoins price anytime they want to to 3 digits.
 
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Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
Meanwhile BTC +10%.
That is exactly its problem. Up 10%. Down 10%. No one trusts it as money or as a store of value.

Meanwhile BTC +10%. SWIFT can be blocked, bank accounts can be blocked, btc cannot.
As 369 already noted, governments would just need to ban crypto-fiat gateways and crypto would lose 95% of its value. Bitcoin exists, in a free-wheeling form, for only as long as governments allow it.
 
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JackAlabama

Entrepreneur
That is exactly its problem. Up 10%. Down 10%. No one trusts it as money or as a store of value.


As 369 already noted, governments would just need to ban crypto-fiat gateways and crypto would lose 95% of its value. Bitcoin exists, in a free-wheeling form, for only as long as governments allow it.
well, sure ;)
 

Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
The people who don't trust it as money or a store of value, don't trust it as money or a store of value.

Everyone else does.

That's logic.
That is not logic. That is literalism. Obviously, by "no one" I meant the general public, who would need to widely accept Bitcoin as a stable store of value for it to become a real form of money.

Clearly, when I said "no one" I did not mean no one on the planet. Your literal interpretation is the exact opposite of logic.
 

khinkali

Silver Member
Obviously, by "no one" I meant the general public

Your and other comments make sense now. You can define words however you want and therefore your points will always be accurate.

Maybe we can even agree, as long as we're not using the actual meaning of words. We can all be correct, all the time.


There are no black swans! This is true in the general sense. (this makes me feel uncomfortable. i don't think i want to continue defining words in this way. i'd rather go back to the actual "literal interpretations" even if some people accuse them of being the "exact opposite of logic")
 

Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
Your and other comments make sense now. You can define words however you want and therefore your points will always be accurate.

Maybe we can even agree, as long as we're not using the actual meaning of words. We can all be correct, all the time.


There are no black swans! This is true in the general sense. (this makes me feel uncomfortable. i don't think i want to continue defining words in this way. i'd rather go back to the actual "literal interpretations" even if some people accuse them of being the "exact opposite of logic")
You are the person who brought up logic. Is it logical to purposefully read something completely out of context so that it literally cannot apply to any situation? Obviously, when I said "no one" I did not mean no one on the planet, because Bitcoin holders themselves trust Bitcoin as money (and I doubt that most of them actually trust Bitcoin as a true store of value). Obviously, I meant the general public.
 

khinkali

Silver Member
Obviously, when I said "no one" I did not mean no one on the planet, because Bitcoin holders themselves trust Bitcoin as money (and I doubt that most of them actually trust Bitcoin as a true store of value). Obviously, I meant the general public.
Perhaps we just define "obviously" differently.

Whenever people say "no one " or "everyone", or "never" or "always"; people should question that.

Otherwise we can just say that "no one" can avoid unfair taxes from their current residence and/or citizenship or "everyone" must comply to FATCA or CRS or whatever because it is true of "the general public". So we should just not bother with this forum?

Some people come here to buy things, some people come here to sell things. But there are quite a few of us who come here precisely because OffshoreCorpTalk is a place to find and discuss solutions that the general public aren't informed about. Approaches that are novel and of interest.

Bitcoin maximalists are almost always idiots. The same goes for their mirror image. We live in a complex world and this is a place to explore that complexity. Doing business outside of the traditional Western system is one of those areas to explore, for those who are interested.
 

Golden Fleece

Entrepreneur
Perhaps we just define "obviously" differently.
When I say "obviously," I mean that only two scenarios can possibly apply: either I meant the general public or I literally meant everyone, in which case I am a raving madman. The context was clear.

Some people come here to buy things, some people come here to sell things. But there are quite a few of us who come here precisely because OffshoreCorpTalk is a place to find and discuss solutions that the general public aren't informed about. Approaches that are novel and of interest.

Bitcoin maximalists are almost always idiots. The same goes for their mirror image. We live in a complex world and this is a place to explore that complexity. Doing business outside of the traditional Western system is one of those areas to explore, for those who are interested.
We wholeheartedly agree here. So, we can part as friends. :D
 

313

New member
@369

You only talk nonsense and don't think about the implications...

Tell me how to disable the gateways, son.

Who will put a stop to the gateways?

How many should be banned?

Which one should be prohibited?

Should FTX be outlawed?

Coinbase? What about Binance?

What will happen to other coins backed by the government?

Okay, how about just banning Bitcoin only?

That's the master coin.

Are you trying to outlaw a coin that is used to exchange hundreds of other coins?

This just fuels the growth of Web3 (a blockchain-based website system) and P2P markets, pushing prices ever higher.

What's more, guess what?

You also want to restrict Visa and MasterCard?

What would you say to companies such as MicroStrategy and Tesla?



Traceable?

Technically, it can be traced.

Nothing is untraceable in our world!

The severity of the traces is solely determined by the individual's intelligence.

What is a 51% attack, anyway?

Man, I believe the forum's administrator should set an age limit.

You may not be aware that governmental actors in Russia, China, and the United States have been attempting to shut down and abolish blockchain-based DAOs since their creation.

One of the reasons for their market success is that no one has been able to take them down.

I recommend delving into the game theory incentives of a blockchain network and how they make it highly resistant to change or attacks, even from state-level actors.

Some governments will continue to move toward totalitarian controls over Bitcoin ownership, and those that do so will simply be shifting trillions of dollars in business activity offshore to countries with more favourable regulatory environments.

Those countries will benefit so much from it that the rest of the world will have to pick between falling behind or joining in.


As I have stated, they are hesitant to ban Bitcoin since it is such a speculative decision. At the very least, they can use people like you to restrict its growth before attempting a sideways takeover.

Wait and watch ;)
 

369

Entrepreneur
You have completly no clue what you are talking about
coinbase,binance,ftx etc are all regulated so they would execute such a ban instantly if desired.
localbitcoin had already a short term ban where exchangers were hunted down for exchanging without license.
The major exchangers there now have an exchange license in their home country.

Like i said you have completly no clue about the background but just repeat the bs shill everyone can read on the internet not understanding the tech and integration into real world including its control mechanism.

It won't take 24 months and decentralized exchanges without kyc/aml will be hunted down no matter if its a dao or not when trading security tokens/fiat


You may not be aware that governmental actors in Russia, China, and the United States have been attempting to shut down and abolish blockchain-based DAOs since their creation.
You know you talk a lot of garbage knowing s**t.
They tried closind DAO's ?Good joke.
I was one of the leaders of the first decentralized exchange (DPOS) in the world called bitshares dex.It was a CMC top 3 coin in 2014.I know everything about DAO's DEX'es and its technology,issues,solutions and i can guarantee you noone tried to close DAO's the only thing what they did is create an environment which holds the people responsible who makes the DAO possible since there is no offical owner but which is not being executed till now.

Like i said you know s**t.Just the basic crypto shilling but no reality
 
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