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juristic person without owner / beneficiaries - foundation? avoid liability, taxes, protect assets?

Discussion in 'Offshore Company formation' started by miner, Aug 5, 2018.

  1. miner

    miner New Member

    "Own nothing, control everything." Does it work?

    Is it possible to have a juristic person that does not have an owner?

    A foundation is its own legal personality. It's owned by nobody. It owns itself.

    A foundation cannot make business but it can own an IBC which does business.

    Foundations vs. Trusts says "A foundation does not need to have any beneficiaries."
    "As there are no shareholders or ‘owners’ and there is no requirement to have beneficiaries,"

    So no owners, no beneficiaries, no shareholders.

    Is it possible for an IBC owned by a foundation to get a bank account? Wouldn't the bank ask who is the UBO (ultimate beneficial owner) is? Is "there is none" an acceptable answer? :)

    Could such a structure be used to legally avoid CFC (controlled foreign company laws)?

    How to get money out of it? Well, a salary and paying income tax on it? At least company tax would be legally avoided.

    How to get a lot money out of it? Become tax resident in a zero tax country, and if one controls the structure, no one is going to ask any questions?
     
  2. Martin Everson

    Martin Everson Offshore Consultant Business Angel

    Yes of course.

    It is not possible in 2018 to get a bank account for such an entity without declaring the UBO to bank. Don't waste your time going down this route its 2018. Bank needs to know human UBO. I have discussed this in another thread you can search for in forum when question was last asked.

    Yes. Certain companies from certain countries have legally used such structures to circumvent sanctions. Problem is banking.

    You won't have an account to put money into in the first place so you won't reach stage of getting money out.

    Why not just move to a zero tax country in first place and save yourself the stress. You are quoting articles from 2014 and we are in 2018. The world has moved on in terms of compliance and regulation.
     
    miner and MrTony like this.
  3. joelb

    joelb International Pirate ;-D BANNED MEMBER

    - So what is the solution in that case?

    - I don't know the OP, but I am fine where I am, until I accumulate enough funds in my offshore. Then I will move to a zero tax country for sure. But until then I want to make sure I won't get slapped by the tax authority. So in your opinion it's better to have a nominee shareholder to avoid CFC then a holding foundation?
     
  4. Martin Everson

    Martin Everson Offshore Consultant Business Angel

    Declare the UBO to bank as is required.

    That's a bit like a stripper saying I am only going to do this until I make enough money and then I will quit...lol. Face reality if your not moving now then there is little chance you will move later. When talking about accumulating funds offshore you need to look at you currently local tax law says to determine what is possible. Sadly building offshore funds secretly and then hoping to move at a later date will probably not work as governments have clocked on and will be closing all the doors on this practice.You also mentioned nominee shareholder but a nominee is just that a nominee. Much more substance is needed than a nominee in 2018 to avoid CFC :-(
     
  5. joelb

    joelb International Pirate ;-D BANNED MEMBER

    Such as?
     
  6. joelb

    joelb International Pirate ;-D BANNED MEMBER

    To my understanding, CFC applies only if I am 50%+ shareholder of the offshore company.
    So in the case when I am not a shareholder (because of a nominee 100% shareholder) but I am a director, the company should be considered CFC because even if I manage it (as a director) I am not the owner, I am just an employee... so why should the company pay taxes just because of an employee?

    Correct me if I am wrong.
     
  7. Martin Everson

    Martin Everson Offshore Consultant Business Angel

    Do you know what a nominee is? You can get in trouble in some countries like Netherlands for creating such an artificial sham construct.

    What country are you from firstly?
     
  8. joelb

    joelb International Pirate ;-D BANNED MEMBER

    He will be in the company register as the shareholder I guess. Otherwise, why would I pay for that service?

    I am from Hungary. And the CFC law says, the offshore company is considered CFC is you have 50%+ ownership.
     
  9. Martin Everson

    Martin Everson Offshore Consultant Business Angel

    So if the shareholder was asked under oath if he was a "genuine shareholder" or a "nominee shareholder" what would he reply in a court of law????? It is that simply to expose sham entities ;-) You would find yourself accused by taxman of creating an artificial construct to simply avoid paying taxes and that's the problem my friend.

    I can't say I know anything about Hungarian tax laws. I would seek professional local tax advice. I imagine it cannot be that expensive to get a good lawyer for 2-3 hours work :)
     
  10. joelb

    joelb International Pirate ;-D BANNED MEMBER

    A nominee shareholder from Belize will never go to Hungary to testify under oath.
    And in Belize they have better things to do (getting tanned, finishing, surfing, etc) than citing nominees to the Belize court to ask them on behalf of the Hungarian taxmen.
    I mean... yes, theoretically this is a possibility, just as much as an asteroid hits earth tomorrow and we all die. In my opinion at least.

    The problem with that is I asked many lawyers and they can't think outside the box. They are not interested in giving me a solution, they only tell me what I can't do.
    Also, many of them only know the laws but not how to use them to achieve something that you want. Same applies to accountants. 99% are only good to file your tax documents as they are, they have no clue how to lower your taxes. They are not interested in that, since they get the same payment if they think or just file like a mindless robot.

    That is why I am here on this forum, because you have experience in the field, not like accountants and lawyers, whos best advice would be: "Deduct your home office and the gas you use."
     
  11. Martin Everson

    Martin Everson Offshore Consultant Business Angel

    I was being sarcastic to make the point that a nominee does not have your back for the i.e $200 you pay them a year. They will throw you to the wolves at the first official letter they receive from a government agency asking the same question.

    In 2018 the lawyers and accountants that offer these services are treated the same way as people who sell fur coats are - i.e it is no longer considered acceptable although it is still done.I would relocate to a tax friendly country and then setup all the offshore companies you want.