List of Website where You can buy gold with bitcoin

[backpacker]

Thanks for the link. I thought I was about to see some earthquake insurance type scams (you take the payments, then go bust if there's an earthquake, or in this case if XAU drops in price) but I saw Gemini in that list and I was intrigued.

Gemini Earn isn't insured by the Feds or any insurer utilised by Gemini. The scheme is down to Genesis Trading.


The business model is OK, if they're sober and serious players who know how to manage risk for the long term. This is one of the cases where I find NY DFS, FINRA, SEC, SIPC and FINCEN reassuring. I despise government monopolistic protection rackets, but I also believe there's real value to the Feds offering voluntary protection to those who choose it. If only they had the confidence to believe that people would opt in without thread of prison time - but that's for another thread.

1.81% APY is pretty good, compared to paying for gold storage. If you think that gold is a stable long term hedge and that none of Genesis, Gemini nor Paxos will collapse to zero more often than once per 60.91 years, you can get some profit.

All of this is high risk. It is just a question of what is more risky and what is less risky. The latter category would fill Gemini, BlockFI and Celsius with Celsius clearly being the riskiest considering their high "savings" rates and low borrowing rates. Everything else in that list is not worth discussing.

Aside from that: Never should anybody confuse Paxos Gold with real gold or a regulated physical gold ETF. Same is valid for stablecoins which some credulous people seem to think are the ideal alternative to low-yielding USD bank accounts. Unfortunately, they are not. There is no reliable audit, no government backing and they all can vanish tomorrow .

So, this is all purely speculative!

 

[khinkali]

If YouHodler pay 8.2% then you could accept a higher risk of loss. I'd probably pick the lower and less risky return.

Never should anybody confuse Paxos Gold with real gold or a regulated physical gold ETF.

PAXG is backed and redeemable 1:1 by London Good Delivery gold bars, stored in Brink’s vaults. The oversight from New York State Department of Financial Services is considerable. I don't think I'd say that the SEC is more competent than NYDFS (but then, I don't think I'd call SEC competent).

If you hold Goldman Sachs Physical Gold ETF on the other hand, can you redeem your ETF shares for physical? They dip into the fund to pay "expenses" so there could be no guarantee that they have enough to cover some quantity of gold referenced at the time of purchase. I'm not saying that's bad, it's an efficient way to collect fees, but it's confusing to call it "physical gold" when the amount of gold in each share slowly diminishes.

 

[fatcat1970]

The Goldman Sachs ETF is the old Perth Mint EFT. This change pissed off a lot of people.

"Also out with the Perth Mint is the ETF’s novel convertibility feature that allowed shareholders of the ETF to exchange their shares for delivery of physical gold in the form of bullion bars and coins issued by the mint."

from:

Goldman Sachs completes acquisition of physical gold ETF

Western Australia state Government backing also disappeared with the sale.

 

[fatcat1970]

PAXG Gold is audited monthly I think. And they tell you the serial number of the 400 ounce bar your share is allocated too. I'm not saying there's no risk with Paxg but storing gold at home or buried in a National Park also has risks.

 

[uplana]

If there is real gold and audited accounts it can't be that bad!

 

[backpacker]

If YouHodler pay 8.2% then you could accept a higher risk of loss. I'd probably pick the lower and less risky return.


PAXG is backed and redeemable 1:1 by London Good Delivery gold bars, stored in Brink’s vaults. The oversight from New York State Department of Financial Services is considerable. I don't think I'd say that the SEC is more competent than NYDFS (but then, I don't think I'd call SEC competent).

If you hold Goldman Sachs Physical Gold ETF on the other hand, can you redeem your ETF shares for physical? They dip into the fund to pay "expenses" so there could be no guarantee that they have enough to cover some quantity of gold referenced at the time of purchase. I'm not saying that's bad, it's an efficient way to collect fees, but it's confusing to call it "physical gold" when the amount of gold in each share slowly diminishes.

First of all: I am not a gold bull. Therefore, I would neither invest in physical nor synthetic nor anything else gold related. The last year has shown quite well that gold is all but a safe-heaven.

Nevertheless, let's stick with this example of a gold ETF: As you already mentioned, a gold ETF (no matter if issued Goldman Sachs or others) covers it's expenses by deducting the fees from the assets of the fund which reduces the NAV accordingly. That is efficient and a logical procedure. How else can it work. And yes, there are expenses. Storage costs of the bars + administration + legal expenses of running a fund are significant.
This begs the question how PAXG covers its expenses: Do they have no expenses? If so, why do they have no expenses? Or do they have expenses and cover these in other ways. The latter would be the worst because of it being non-transparent. I am not talking about the tiny 0.02% token creation/destruction fee because with that they can not cover all costs realistically.

N.B.: There is only one gold ETF the goldbugs are relatively confident with. It is ZKB Gold, a Swiss ETF of Zuericher Kantonalbank. This ETF was also the first one on the market. And in good old Swiss tradition it is also the most expensive one on the market. It comes with a very simple prospectus, gold is easily accessible and stored in the vault of ZKB. If I would invest in any such vehicle (I would not) I'd pick that one.

 

[khinkali]

Sure, I wasn't saying the ETF model is bad, just that the name "physical gold" is confusing when there are 1:1 gold backed solutions around. I would trust ZKB gold, but tokens are far more convenient.

This begs the question how PAXG covers its expenses

Creation and redemption fees are up to 1%, but can be as low as 0.15% for large volume. I read that they have a spread on buying and selling but I don't have an account so I can't see their prices. Probably more useful are the 0.02% transfer fees which are charged along with the Ethereum gas fees.

I agree it seems cheap. Digix charge 1% on redemption and 0.13% transfer fees, but again no demurrage.

I think the business model is going to be more about custody and value added services; what they can't do is invest in commercial paper like Tether have been doing with the USD backing USDT.

 

[backpacker]

Sure, I wasn't saying the ETF model is bad, just that the name "physical gold" is confusing when there are 1:1 gold backed solutions around. I would trust ZKB gold, but tokens are far more convenient.


Creation and redemption fees are up to 1%, but can be as low as 0.15% for large volume. I read that they have a spread on buying and selling but I don't have an account so I can't see their prices. Probably more useful are the 0.02% transfer fees which are charged along with the Ethereum gas fees.

I agree it seems cheap. Digix charge 1% on redemption and 0.13% transfer fees, but again no demurrage.

I think the business model is going to be more about custody and value added services; what they can't do is invest in commercial paper like Tether have been doing with the USD backing USDT.

I checked this link https://help.paxos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360041903832-PAX-Gold-Fees and with no word do they mention any other than the tiny 0.02%.
May be there is a simple explanation why they do not charge any any sort of custody- or expense-fees: SEC! If they would charge any of the aforementioned PAXG would definitely be a security, not a token.
The question is just how sustainable such a business model is and for how long they can keep it running.

 

[khinkali]

The 0.02% fee is for blockchain transfers. e.g. into an exchange, out of an exchange, p2p. Basically wallet to wallet.

If you scroll down a little, you can see the Creation & Destruction Fee which is 1% for $4k to $50k, down to 0.1% for $400k+

The SEC is a problem for the US, outdated and heavily politicised. Even the CFTC had to publicly slap the SEC down recently regarding crypto derivatives. Hopefully Paxos Trust will remain in the regulatory remit of the far more reputable NYSDFS and not those Washington muppets.

 

[fatcat1970]

Creation & Destruction Fees for PAXG are similar to the buy and sell fees for a Depository Online account at the Perth Mint (1% for $50-$10,000, down to 0.20% for greater than $1M).

With PAXG you can redeem for a physical gold bar in London but you must have at least 430 troy ounces in your account; so only Fat Cats need apply!

With a Perth Mint Depository Online account you can redeem for a physical gold bar in Perth, with the smallest bar size being a 1 troy ounce.

 

[fatcat1970]

First of all: I am not a gold bull. Therefore, I would neither invest in physical nor synthetic nor anything else gold related. The last year has shown quite well that gold is all but a safe-heaven.

Gold isn't doing as bad as you think.

When evaluating the performance of gold as an investment over the long term, it really depends on the time period being looked at. From 1990 to 2020, the price of gold increased by around 360%. Over the same period, the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) gained 991%. If we look instead over the 15 years from 2005 to 2020, the price of gold has increased by 330%, roughly the same as the 30 year. Over the same period, the DJIA increased by only 153%.

So, over the longer term, stocks seem to outperform gold by about 3-to-1, but over shorter time horizons, gold may win out.

Turning to bonds, the average annual rate of return on investment-grade corporate bonds going back to the 1920s until 2020 is around 5%. That indicates that over the past 30 years, corporate bonds have returned around 330% - slightly below that of gold. Over a 15-year period the return on bonds has been lower than both stocks and gold.

I think gold and silver at the moment are underpriced. If you buy and sell gold at the right time you can do very well.

 

[khinkali]

From 1990 to 2020, the price of gold increased by around 360%.

I don't disagree with the points you're making but I think we should say that the value of gold didn't really increase, the value of a US dollar dropped catastrophically.

 

[bandanna]

Any of those does delivery? Will I be able to receive gold in Europe?

 

[JohnLocke]

I don't disagree with the points you're making but I think we should say that the value of gold didn't really increase, the value of a US dollar dropped catastrophically.

So you mean the below table on the right is not true?

Gold Price Europe

GOLDPRICE.ORG - The number 1 web site for spot gold price charts in ounces, grams and kilos.

goldprice.org

 

[khinkali]

So you mean the below table on the right is not true?

I mean that a lot of the increase in gold price in that time range, is really USD devaluation.

There are many inflation metrics, largely flawed but just to show an example from the same site:

Inflation Adjusted Gold Price

Source: shadowstats.com View other gold price history charts including 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, 5 years and 10 years.

goldprice.org

In the very long term, hundreds of years to thousands, gold has been pretty stable.

 

[wellington]

Problem buying stuff with crypto, is that if you hold it in their vault, at some point you may have it frozen for EDD etc.

Better to just buy with fiat, because the banks already have verified the funds are not sourced or at some stage co-mingled with some dirty funds before you got them.

I.e like this poor sap, looking at life due to dodgy software from chainalysis, which is merely promoting voodo in a lot of cases as it's desperate to feed on Gov money.

CipherTrace expert says Chainalysis data contributed to ‘wrongful arrest’ of alleged Bitcoin Fog founder

Jonelle Still, the director of investigations and intelligence at CipherTrace, a Mastercard company, filed a 41-page analysis of the Chainalysis data that’s been submitted in the U.S. v. Sterlingov that supports the defense.

cointelegraph.com

 

[jafo]

Problem buying stuff with crypto, is that if you hold it in their vault, at some point you may have it frozen for EDD etc.

Better to just buy with fiat, because the banks already have verified the funds are not sourced or at some stage co-mingled with some dirty funds before you got them.

I.e like this poor sap, looking at life due to dodgy software from chainalysis, which is merely promoting voodo in a lot of cases as it's desperate to feed on Gov money.

CipherTrace expert says Chainalysis data contributed to ‘wrongful arrest’ of alleged Bitcoin Fog founder

Jonelle Still, the director of investigations and intelligence at CipherTrace, a Mastercard company, filed a 41-page analysis of the Chainalysis data that’s been submitted in the U.S. v. Sterlingov that supports the defense.

cointelegraph.com

Holy f*ck! If you read this, you'll sh1t! The Case of Roman Sterlingov with Tor Ekeland & Mike Hassard — What Bitcoin Did

PS. Thank you for sharing!

 

[uplana]

Someone mind to update this list? Going through some of the older threads around and see some opportunities to renew them to bring their value back.