Malaysia My Second Home MM2H Is Set to return

[orangekangaroo]

The MM2H program for Malaysia which has been closed down for 18 months is et to return with a lot stricter conditions. MM2H in the past allowed people to visit Malaysia to become residents and purchase properties. This was a permit granted for 10 years. However, the new proposed MM2H is much harder and more expensive to get. The benefit of MM2H is that income from outside Malaysia is not taxed even if managed in Malaysia.

Annual salary requirements 8K euros compared to 2K euros in the past.
Fixed savings requirement of 200K euro - previous program 30k euro (over 50 years old) to 60K euro (below 50 years old)
5-year length renewable for another 5 years - previous 10-year length
Processing cost and yearly costs - previously no processing cost and low yearly costs.
Minimum stay requirement of 3 months - previously no minimum stay requirement.

The higher monthly requirements of 8K euro and higher deposit of 200K put it out of reach for a lot of people.


MM2H programme to be reactivated in October — home ministry

 

[JackAlabama]

Not too fond of Asia during the last 18 months sadly. Also having to dump a 250k into a not so great fiat currency (ringgit) is also not the best. If that was Georgia which pays about 10% on local currency, it would be worth to look at least.
I'd opt for making the labuan comapny route work if I would want to live in Malaysia.
Or better to just get the thai elite card, pay, get and forget about it.

 

[orangekangaroo]

Thailand program in flux too. Working on new expensive options with the carrot of full property ownership for foreigners.

The proposal outlined specific criteria that members of the four targeted groups must meet in order to qualify. They are as follows:

• Wealthy people – must have $1 million in assets and $100,000 in health insurance. They also must invest $500,000 in real estate or Thai government bonds and have a minimum of $80,000 of income over the past 2 years
• Digital nomads – must have an income of $40,000 a year and health insurance to the tune of $100,000
• Retirees – must be 50 or over with an annual income of $40,000, $250,000 worth of investment in government bonds or real estate, and $100,000 health insurance
• Skilled workers – must have skills or abilities that would make them an asset to the country. Needs to have an income of $40,000 a year and health insurance of $100,000

https://www.traveloffpath.com/thailand-targets-digital-nomads-in-a-bid-to-revive-tourism/

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

The MM2H program for Malaysia which has been closed down for 18 months is et to return with a lot stricter conditions. MM2H in the past allowed people to visit Malaysia to become residents and purchase properties. This was a permit granted for 10 years. However, the new proposed MM2H is much harder and more expensive to get. The benefit of MM2H is that income from outside Malaysia is not taxed even if managed in Malaysia.

Annual salary requirements 8K euros compared to 2K euros in the past.
Fixed savings requirement of 200K euro - previous program 30k euro (over 50 years old) to 60K euro (below 50 years old)
5-year length renewable for another 5 years - previous 10-year length
Processing cost and yearly costs - previously no processing cost and low yearly costs.
Minimum stay requirement of 3 months - previously no minimum stay requirement.

The higher monthly requirements of 8K euro and higher deposit of 200K put it out of reach for a lot of people.


MM2H programme to be reactivated in October — home ministry

Yeah, I heard of this news, I have a property in Malaysia and as a property owner, I would advise people to stay the f**k away from purchasing any kind of property in Malaysia, I will see if I could sell mine in the next couple of months and simply rent when I Go back to Malaysia.

the thing that bothers me is those changes apply to people who have gotten the MM2H VISA as far back as two decades ago, and have been settled in Malaysia until now. and that's meant that it applies to people like me, and if the government applied this to us who were settled in Malaysia for long time, who would guarantee that they wouldn't change these requirements again in the future? if I were an international investor, I would raise my eyebrow to any country that does business in such a manner. Don't get me wrong, I love Malaysia, the culture, the people...etc. But I hate the Current government with full passion.

the Ketuanan Melayu crowd, which forms the base of the current government, don't want these "evil foreigners" who want to ruin their beautiful Malaysia, even a lot of my Malaysian friends stay away from this nutty crowd. and their stupid politics

The MM2H participants spent an estimated RM4.9 billion in 2017 and RM4.4 billion in 2018 on property, rent, vehicles and immigration fees. Among the other sectors they have contributed to are education, travel, hospitality, retail, medical, food, beverage, and entertainment. So I don't know where do they get "evil foreigners" narrative from.

So, I think that the current government wanted to intentionally make MM2H non-viable without explicitly saying so. So the MM2H program was not "extinct", it was simply "improved". And at the same time, you please the Ketuanan Melayu crowd, which don't want evil foreigners in their land.

However after all of that, I'm still hopeful. Even as shitty as the new requirements are, the program will open again and that's good news. and I know that some consultants and lobbyists are already trying to pressure the government to lower their requirements because it's just unreasonable.

But yeah, if the government continues with the program like that, I would simply consider other options (if it was better) after the expiration of my current visa.

 

[Silvio]

Yeah, I heard of this news, I have a property in Malaysia and as a property owner, I would advise people to stay the f**k away from purchasing any kind of property in Malaysia, I will see if I could sell mine in the next couple of months and simply rent when I Go back to Malaysia.

Can you elaborate on why you advise to stay away from Malaysian real estate?
Some offshore "gurus" like N0mad S0cialist swear by it...

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Can you elaborate on why you advise to stay away from Malaysian real estate?

Because of a lot of factors:
1. foreigners are only allowed to purchase certain properties in Malaysia under one million RM in most of the major malay states and in some areas this number could be 2 or even 3 million RM. that means that most of your clients would be other foreigners, because there is no way a local would buy a property like that, unless he is a high earner and if that was the case, he would almost always get a better deal for less price.

2. A lot of MM2H clients were purchasing properties from developers even before the properties went under construction or even built yet like a lot of projects in Forest City in Johor for example, that's how much the program was successful and it shows you the faith that investors had in the program (that's tested and works) and now the government changed the requirements, and a lot of these people would consider canceling their contracts and looking for other options.

3. the real estate market in Malaysia fell rapidly (Sources: 1,2) for lots of reasons (Covid, closed borders, suspension of mm2h...etc) and a lot of projects are in limbo (be ready to hear about ghost towns/cities in Malaysia soon), not only that, the number of MM2H applicants were only 50k and not all of them purchase properties, and the people that do buy properties already did (at least a lot of them did), so the government don't do themselves any favor when they make the requirements that strict/hard, because this will sway away a lot of potential applicants, and will make existing MM2H visa holders (like myself) prepare for the future and consider other options.

There are lots of other reasons, but all of these negative news, will make the prices of real estates drop, and I'm having none of that, so I will sell for now, and I'm sure other well too. but I'm an opportunist in nature and If I found a good deal and I know that the government will backtrack on this BS, I will buy again from people who want out, I can always buy again, but It will be hard to sell for a good price if this news continue.

Some offshore "gurus" like N0mad S0cialist swear by it...

not this "guru" again, this guy have no clue about what he is talking about, he says lots of buzzwords and has no working solutions. He cry every now and then about a bank that closed his accounts or a client that do this and that. That's it. and don't let me get started on his nonsense about his "deals" and his "Swimming pool" businesses lol.

I don't want to label him as a scam or fraud, because he simply could be an introducer to legit service providers, but he is just like that, a middleman that charges a lot of money for absolutely nothing and for things that you can absolutely do by working with these providers directly.

His opinions in Malaysia (like the people, the culture..etc) are ok, but I won't listen to him regarding any deals, properties or not, this guys sells a service and he wants people to come and buy properties so he can make more money off of his clients.

hell, I own a property in Malaysia and it will be great for me if a lot of people came to Malaysia to purchase properties because the prices will rise, and I could tell you to come and invest because a lot of people will be selling and it will be a great opportunity to buy amongst this fear and yada yada yada, but I don't want people to take these risks while living under a government that can change their policies in a whim. if it's a risk that you are willing to take, then sure do whatever you like, but if not, stay away from this mess - for now at least.

 

[Marzio]

a middleman that charges a lot of money for absolutely nothing

In other words a marketing genius.

 

[RexS9999]

Because of a lot of factors:
1. foreigners are only allowed to purchase certain properties in Malaysia under one million RM in most of the major malay states and in some areas this number could be 2 or even 3 million RM. that means that most of your clients would be other foreigners, because there is no way a local would buy a property like that, unless he is a high earner and if that was the case, he would almost always get a better deal for less price.

2. A lot of MM2H clients were purchasing properties from developers even before the properties went under construction or even built yet like a lot of projects in Forest City in Johor for example, that's how much the program was successful and it shows you the faith that investors had in the program (that's tested and works) and now the government changed the requirements, and a lot of these people would consider canceling their contracts and looking for other options.

3. the real estate market in Malaysia fell rapidly (Sources: 1,2) for lots of reasons (Covid, closed borders, suspension of mm2h...etc) and a lot of projects are in limbo (be ready to hear about ghost towns/cities in Malaysia soon), not only that, the number of MM2H applicants were only 50k and not all of them purchase properties, and the people that do buy properties already did (at least a lot of them did), so the government don't do themselves any favor when they make the requirements that strict/hard, because this will sway away a lot of potential applicants, and will make existing MM2H visa holders (like myself) prepare for the future and consider other options.

There are lots of other reasons, but all of these negative news, will make the prices of real estates drop, and I'm having none of that, so I will sell for now, and I'm sure other well too. but I'm an opportunist in nature and If I found a good deal and I know that the government will backtrack on this BS, I will buy again from people who want out, I can always buy again, but It will be hard to sell for a good price if this news continue.


not this "guru" again, this guy have no clue about what he is talking about, he says lots of buzzwords and has no working solutions. He cry every now and then about a bank that closed his accounts or a client that do this and that. That's it. and don't let me get started on his nonsense about his "deals" and his "Swimming pool" businesses lol.

I don't want to label him as a scam or fraud, because he simply could be an introducer to legit service providers, but he is just like that, a middleman that charges a lot of money for absolutely nothing and for things that you can absolutely do by working with these providers directly.

His opinions in Malaysia (like the people, the culture..etc) are ok, but I won't listen to him regarding any deals, properties or not, this guys sells a service and he wants people to come and buy properties so he can make more money off of his clients.

hell, I own a property in Malaysia and it will be great for me if a lot of people came to Malaysia to purchase properties because the prices will rise, and I could tell you to come and invest because a lot of people will be selling and it will be a great opportunity to buy amongst this fear and yada yada yada, but I don't want people to take these risks while living under a government that can change their policies in a whim. if it's a risk that you are willing to take, then sure do whatever you like, but if not, stay away from this mess - for now at least.

Thanks for this warning. Appreciate this.

 

[backpacker]

Mind-boggling:
https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/poli...home-malaysias-changes-mm2h-visa-scheme-throwand
https://www.imidaily.com/opinion/3-...2h-relaunch-holds-for-migration-policymakers/

 

[Golden Fleece]

Never trust any government. Ireland did something similar years ago when it arbitrarily raised the annual income for residency retirees to 50,000 Euros, which forced many residency retirees to leave the country and their homes. Up until that time, everyone considered Ireland a cheap place to which to retire.

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Never trust any government. Ireland did something similar years ago when it arbitrarily raised the annual income for residency retirees to 50,000 Euros, which forced many residency retirees to leave the country and their homes. Up until that time, everyone considered Ireland a cheap place to which to retire.

didn't know about Ireland, but thanks for the info.

It's just sad, Malaysia was the perfect place for me in Asia, it's very underrated country, it's very very close to singapore without the prohibitive costs that comes with living in Singapore, very big properties for reasonable costs unlike the tiny ones that you find in Thailand and Singapore and are cost prohibitive, it has branches of most Singaporean banks so it was a good way to get into the Singaporean banking system, plus Malaysia has all the amenities that you find in most western countries.

it was just exciting "hub" in Asia, you felt the opportunities at every corner, it's just very sad that this all will come to an end somehow once my visa expires, and all of this is because of some mentally retards in the current government, people who are beyond stupid. they are targeting people who won't even consider Malaysia as their first option, literally no one will even consider it, unless it benefit them somehow.

Maybe that was the intention? since the current ruling party aren't fond of "Evil foreigners" "abusing" their country whatever the f**k that means.

It's really really sad, but well, Onto the next one I guess

 

[JackAlabama]

didn't know about Ireland, but thanks for the info.

It's just sad, Malaysia was the perfect place for me in Asia, it's very underrated country, it's very very close to singapore without the prohibitive costs that comes with living in Singapore, very big properties for reasonable costs unlike the tiny ones that you find in Thailand and Singapore and are cost prohibitive, it has branches of most Singaporean banks so it was a good way to get into the Singaporean banking system, plus Malaysia has all the amenities that you find in most western countries.

it was just exciting "hub" in Asia, you felt the opportunities at every corner, it's just very sad that this all will come to an end somehow once my visa expires, and all of this is because of some mentally retards in the current government, people who are beyond stupid. they are targeting people who won't even consider Malaysia as their first option, literally no one will even consider it, unless it benefit them somehow.

Maybe that was the intention? since the current ruling party aren't fond of "Evil foreigners" "abusing" their country whatever the f**k that means.

It's really really sad, but well, Onto the next one I guess

Yah, spot on about Malaysia. Well good luck to them as they tank the ringgit even more.

 

[skysurfer42]

Didn't long term mm2h people have trouble getting back into malaysia during the covid lockdown period, told them to go back to their original home country, when malaysia was long their home? Basically that plus the new rules makes this unacceptable for many. You would think they would relax the rules even more, not increase them.

 

[backpacker]

Didn't long term mm2h people have trouble getting back into malaysia during the covid lockdown period, told them to go back to their original home country, when malaysia was long their home?

This was indeed the case. Unfortunately, Malaysia was not alone with this.
COVID-19 showed quite dramatically that residence permits of banana countries have no value at all: During good times you can manage to live there without such a permit, during bad times they do not live up to their purpose.

 

[JackAlabama]

This was indeed the case. Unfortunately, Malaysia was not alone with this.
COVID-19 showed quite dramatically that residence permits of banana countries have no value at all: During good times you can manage to live there without such a permit, during bad times they do not live up to their purpose.

That is indeed pretty accurate. Also the banana republic just extended tourists or whatever visa one had in general. They have however value to show to other places which otherwise might not let you leave.

 

[OTR365]

...residence permits of banana countries have no value at all...

True, and the situation is even worse. At least Cyprus and Australia temporarily denied entry of their own citizens. Imagine being a tax-paying citizen, denied entry to your home country. Stranded abroad, no place to go, struggling to even find a hotel (because hotels were closing), running out of money. Some of these people must've done a military service or even fought for their country in a war, and in exchange their country treats them like s**t.

As to MM2H, some article described it as a "botched relaunch". I doubt this is the case. More likely the program was ruined on purpose, the real reasons we can only guess. The money MM2H brought in, is not that remarkable in relation to the Malaysian economy. Likewise, we've seen that when going gets tough, the value of a Thai residency is zero bahts. Lots of Western residency holders were stuck outside, not seeing their family for months.

The way forward is to have several citizenships and residence permits. Maybe one of them will work

 

[backpacker]

The money MM2H brought in, is not that remarkable in relation to the Malaysian economy.

That is up to discussion.
Former Minister of Tourism Mohamed Nazri Abdul Aziz worded it nicely when asked by ABC -> Malaysia targets Australian retirees to boost economy (see centre of article)
Considering that MY got the money for absolutely nothing in return, I tend to share the view of the former minister.

Likewise, we've seen that when going gets tough, the value of a Thai residency is zero bahts. Lots of Western residency holders were stuck outside, not seeing their family for months.

True. Plus so many more countries!
Add the Philippines to it which barred even their priced SRRV and SIRV holders from entering for a "relatively short period of time" in IIQ2020 and IIIQ2020 which was later recognized as an administrative error -> PH barring foreigners; DFA says no exceptions . Now think of a holder of a Special Investors' Resident Visa (SIRV) who runs his legitimate business there - the marketing gag "It's more fun in the Philippines" finally became true for that guy.
And -of course- Georgia ->Georgia temporarily bans entry into Georgia for foreigners due to coronavirus (it wasn't only two weeks, they extended it silently) who's exceptional government is always good for exceptionally well thought ideas.

The way forward is to have several citizenships and residence permits.

I was of that opinion, too - until COVID-19 hit. Today I find it completely irrelevant for somebody who has been outside of his motherland for decades already. Note: The more passports you have the more kings you serve !

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

That is up to discussion.
Former Minister of Tourism Mohamed Nazri Abdul Aziz worded it nicely when asked by ABC -> Malaysia targets Australian retirees to boost economy (see centre of article)
Considering that MY got the money for absolutely nothing in return, I tend to share the view of the former minister.

True. Plus so many more countries!
Add the Philippines to it which barred even their priced SRRV and SIRV holders from entering for a "relatively short period of time" in IIQ2020 and IIIQ2020 which was later recognized as an administrative error -> PH barring foreigners; DFA says no exceptions . Now think of a holder of a Special Investors' Resident Visa (SIRV) who runs his legitimate business there - the marketing gag "It's more fun in the Philippines" finally became true for that guy.
And -of course- Georgia ->Georgia temporarily bans entry into Georgia for foreigners due to coronavirus (it wasn't only two weeks, they extended it silently) who's exceptional government is always good for exceptionally well thought ideas.

I share the same view with you regarding what you said about all of that, we even saw western countries saying no to each other like Canada says no to Americans in 2020 and they just recently started loosing it a bit and Europe says no to Americans for now and beyond and Americans says no to Europeans and other countries. the past two years were nothing but a s**t show.

I was of that opinion, too - until COVID-19 hit. Today I find it completely irrelevant for somebody who has been outside of his motherland for decades already. Note: The more passports you have the more kings you serve !

Absolutely, it's a double edged sword, and it could get bad, for example, a lot of "Accidental Americans" get fucked by uncle sam and his gang, just because they have a US passport, even though they might have never set foot in the US.

So one need to be really careful which passport should one choose, EU passport comes with cool perks but if I (and I'm sure others too) heard that the EU will impose European/citizenship based taxation, I will denounce my EU citizenship in a heartbeat (I'm sure that they will introduce this down the line, but they need to impose a wealth tax first before going that route)

having a south American passport might be worth it? idk, plenty of socialist governments there and I'm not sure if it's worth it, Chile is also a socialist one, but they are the most developed of the bunch, so it might be worth looking into, but I'm not too sue.

but all on all, I think the way to go 2021 and beyond is less about the passport and more about residence permits, that's where we should focus.

I think for most people in this forum, a Caribbean passport + couple of residence permits around the world (Asia, middle east, South America, Eastern Europe? maybe ) would be more than enough for most of their needs.

I see resident permits as short or long term relationships, it totally depends on you and what you make out of them, but you can get out of it pretty much harmless if you played your cards right, but citizenship is just like marriage, it will either be a good couple of years and then turns into a complete s**t or it will be just shitty from the start (rare but it happens) or it will be a good relationship but that will require some sacrifices and I'm not sure if these are sacrifices that people in this forum are willing to make.

but for me, +1 for residencies, citizenships? not so much.

 

[backpacker]

So one need to be really careful which passport should one choose, EU passport comes with cool perks but if I (and I'm sure others too) heard that the EU will impose European/citizenship based taxation, I will denounce my EU citizenship in a heartbeat (I'm sure that they will introduce this down the line, but they need to impose a wealth tax first before going that route)

An EU wealth tax is indeed lingering around the corner. It's implementation is an easy task + it can be sold exceptionally well to the general public + it will be welcomed by most member states. The few EU countries who do not like the idea will receive a friendly reminder from their bankrupt colleagues how "blacklisting" works.
To be fair: Switzerland always had wealth taxation. Usually Switzerland adopts EU-regulation. Wealth taxation would indeed be the first time when it's the other way round .

Citizenship based taxation is a bit trickier. For instance, it very much depends on each countries' constitution if such a tax can be imposed on people who have already left the country. It will also depend on when they had left the country, i.e. for how many years a citizen has no longer been a tax-resident.
That said, citizenship based taxation will have an impact on people who did not already leave. It's a bit like with the Berlin Wall in 1961: The ones who had already left the socialist paradise where not affected.

but for me, +1 for residencies

Did you look into Northern Africa (e.g. Egypt) recently?

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

An EU wealth tax is indeed lingering around the corner. It's implementation is an easy task + it can be sold exceptionally well to the general public + it will be welcomed by most member states. The few EU countries who do not like the idea will receive a friendly reminder from their bankrupt colleagues how "blacklisting" works.
To be fair: Switzerland always had wealth taxation. Usually Switzerland adopts EU-regulation. Wealth taxation would indeed be the first time when it's the other way round .

Spot on. most of the general public inside the EU, specially the younger folks, Eat that BS pretty well, And I'm sure that most of them will be more than ok with taxing the "Evil rich people" who don't pay their "fair" share of taxes.

Citizenship based taxation is a bit trickier. For instance, it very much depends on each countries' constitution if such a tax can be imposed on people who have already left the country. It will also depend on when they had left the country, i.e. for how many years a citizen has no longer been a tax-resident.

Heh, if I learned anything from EU lawmakers, is that they really don't care about individual member states laws and regulations, but who knows, maybe they will just introduce the concept and leave the interpretation for each country to decide whom this law applies to? but whatever approach they chose to take, I'm sure they will find a way to do it.

Did you look into Northern Africa (e.g. Egypt) recently?

yeah, I'm now in Egypt (to be precise, the new administrative capital) and have been here for a hot minute.

but not just recently, Egypt have been one of my investment destinations for a long time, because it has a lot of useful use cases and there is money to be made! anyway, I'm curious, what made you ask that question?