Monaco realestate

[sergeylim88]

Monaco real estate - property

what are the pluses and minuses of purchasing reale state in Monaco?
so far i came to these conclusion

PLUS:
- no tax for income
- no cfc rules
- no property tax
- no potential issue like owning a property in some tax problematic country(like germany orspain), where that country tries to tax you based on the fact that you own a property (no 100% sure this is doable, but fellow members claim it is)

MINUS:
- expensive real estate
- small country, for which we don't know if it will exist in 30-50 years or not

does anyone have any experience about real estate in Monaco?
i would like to know which sections of the city are recommendable, or it doesn't matter since it is all fairly the same?
are there any 2nd or 3rd class properties in Monaco?
how much cheaper are apartments that require renovation, and can you do it your self if you are handy enough to do something?
are frauds common, how can you protect your self?

what kind of apartment you would go for:
- small one up to 1.5MM
- bigger one(2 bedroom and living room) for about 3-3.5MM
- bigger one with a view and parking for about 5MM

issue with the view is the fact it can be blocked after some time (in 15-20 years), and then you paid premium for nothing
parking is a convenient thing for sure
bigger is better if you want to move there with family, due to regulations that require certain surface(m2) per person for residency (any idea what is it per person?)

overall purpose of purchasing of this apartment would be like government bonds, so safety, but not in financial instruments but in some form of real estate that can't cause you any headache

@JohnnyDoe i am expecting your precious input on this, i am sure you know something (if not a lot) about this

PS if i missed any aspect, please tell me
thanks

 

[JohnnyDoe]

it seems that you already well researched the market.

Monaco is a safe place and it will definitely continue to exist in the next 50 years but the EU might come up with some stupid rule against it, making it much less attractive.
Fraud in real estate is extremely rare.
I don’t know about prices in the future though. With Russian and Chinese being pulled out of Europe there might be liquidity issues.

Most of the people I know who own real estate in Monaco actually don’t live there: they either live in a villa nearby in France or somewhere else in the world. This tells all about Monaco.

As far as safety is concerned, if I had to choose between an apartment in Monaco and physical gold, I would buy gold.
If you want to park money in real estate, you are still in time to find private islands at decent prices. This particular market boomed in the last couple of years. You can buy interesting ones for around $5m, but for the actual development you need to budget $10-15m.
If you are not much worried about the EU, you could consider historical buildings in Europe, or vineyards/olive groves. You can find good deals in the $1-5m range.

Personally, I don’t like real estate without land. When I invest I want to be in full control. So a random apartment is a no-no for me, wherever situated.

 

[JackAlabama]

it seems that you already well researched the market.

Monaco is a safe place and it will definitely continue to exist in the next 50 years but the EU might come up with some stupid rule against it, making it much less attractive.
Fraud in real estate is extremely rare.
I don’t know about prices in the future though. With Russian and Chinese being pulled out of Europe there might be liquidity issues.

Most of the people I know who own real estate in Monaco actually don’t live there: they either live in a villa nearby in France or somewhere else in the world. This tells all about Monaco.

As far as safety is concerned, if I had to choose between an apartment in Monaco and physical gold, I would buy gold.
If you want to park money in real estate, you are still in time to find private islands at decent prices. This particular market boomed in the last couple of years. You can buy interesting ones for around $5m, but for the actual development you need to budget $10-15m.
If you are not much worried about the EU, you could consider historical buildings in Europe, or vineyards/olive groves. You can find good deals in the $1-5m range.

Personally, I don’t like real estate without land. When I invest I want to be in full control. So a random apartment is a no-no for me, wherever situated.

The vineyards/ olive groves sound good. Because the communists of eu do not like work, it seems pretty safe from confiscation.

 

[Konstanz]

Monaco real estate - property

what are the pluses and minuses of purchasing reale state in Monaco?
so far i came to these conclusion

PLUS:
- no tax for income
- no cfc rules
- no property tax
- no potential issue like owning a property in some tax problematic country(like germany orspain), where that country tries to tax you based on the fact that you own a property (no 100% sure this is doable, but fellow members claim it is)

MINUS:
- expensive real estate
- small country, for which we don't know if it will exist in 30-50 years or not

does anyone have any experience about real estate in Monaco?
i would like to know which sections of the city are recommendable, or it doesn't matter since it is all fairly the same?
are there any 2nd or 3rd class properties in Monaco?
how much cheaper are apartments that require renovation, and can you do it your self if you are handy enough to do something?
are frauds common, how can you protect your self?

what kind of apartment you would go for:
- small one up to 1.5MM
- bigger one(2 bedroom and living room) for about 3-3.5MM
- bigger one with a view and parking for about 5MM

issue with the view is the fact it can be blocked after some time (in 15-20 years), and then you paid premium for nothing
parking is a convenient thing for sure
bigger is better if you want to move there with family, due to regulations that require certain surface(m2) per person for residency (any idea what is it per person?)

overall purpose of purchasing of this apartment would be like government bonds, so safety, but not in financial instruments but in some form of real estate that can't cause you any headache

@JohnnyDoe i am expecting your precious input on this, i am sure you know something (if not a lot) about this

PS if i missed any aspect, please tell me
thanks

It's safe to buy property in Monaco. Scams are very rare or not existent in Monaco buying real estate. The price of the property can be much inflated, so you have to do your own analysis.
Buy smart, negotiate and you should be fine. Monaco is very stable and safe country to live and buy property. Monaco real estate prices always increase each year (of course if you buy smart)!
About EU I would not worry because Monaco is under French protectorate. Monaco will not disappear from the map and I believe the income tax rate will remain 0%. However, residence requirements can become stricter.
France earn billions from Monaco, so they will protect this country and it's 0% income tax regime

 

[sergeylim88]

@JohnnyDoe
good thing about Monaco is the fact that companies registered there do have certain tax, so it is not a tax haven for companies.
it is tax haven for individuals (income tax, no cfc rules)
that makes me think the eu won't put too much pressure on them

i am well aware of the fact that most people rent a small apartment, in order to get a residency, while at the same time living in Nice (or anywhere around Monaco)
in past they used to have people who would come in to turn on the lights, since the authority was checking utility bills (now a days I think that's automatised) for tax residency purpose

as far as olives and grapes goes, yes that can be lucrative, but it is hard work
you would have to do a lot of due diligence, such as checking the soil...
then you would have to find local work force(or import them), then sell the product (or make a final product such as olive oil, or wine)
i think it is hard work, with too many things to fail
farm land is always a good investment, if it can be rented out, but i think prices are quite high (don't know if they will ever drop)

maybe better option is buying a smaller (like 30-40 m2 for 1-1.2MM) apartment for renovation

It's safe to buy property in Monaco. Scams are very rare or not existent in Monaco buying real estate. The price of the property can be much inflated, so you have to do your own analysis.
Buy smart, negotiate and you should be fine. Monaco is very stable and safe country to live and buy property. Monaco real estate prices always increase each year (of course if you buy smart)!
About EU I would not worry because Monaco is under French protectorate. Monaco will not disappear from the map and I believe the income tax rate will remain 0%. However, residence requirements can become stricter.

thank you for your message
now can you help me how to be smart? what does that really mean?
do you think i missed a certain point?
do you know anything about renovations and applying regulations there?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

The vineyards/ olive groves sound good. Because the communists of eu do not like work, it seems pretty safe from confiscation.

And you can always sell your oil/wine to Russia, just pass through another country.

 

[Konstanz]

@JohnnyDoe
good thing about Monaco is the fact that companies registered there do have certain tax, so it is not a tax haven for companies.
it is tax haven for individuals (income tax, no cfc rules)
that makes me think the eu won't put too much pressure on them

i am well aware of the fact that most people rent a small apartment, in order to get a residency, while at the same time living in Nice (or anywhere around Monaco)
in past they used to have people who would come in to turn on the lights, since the authority was checking utility bills (now a days I think that's automatised) for tax residency purpose

as far as olives and grapes goes, yes that can be lucrative, but it is hard work
you would have to do a lot of due diligence, such as checking the soil...
then you would have to find local work force(or import them), then sell the product (or make a final product such as olive oil, or wine)
i think it is hard work, with too many things to fail
farm land is always a good investment, if it can be rented out, but i think prices are quite high (don't know if they will ever drop)

maybe better option is buying a smaller (like 30-40 m2 for 1-1.2MM) apartment for renovation



thank you for your message
now can you help me how to be smart? what does that really mean?
do you think i missed a certain point?
do you know anything about renovations and applying regulations there?

Smart means don't buy property with inflated or not not market price. Do your own research.
Some apartments have certain conditions - how they call they are "under law". This means you cannot rent for foreigner for example. Some apartments are without any restrictions.
Also keep in mind that Airbnb / short term rent is banned in Monaco. You cannot put your apartment to Airbnb. All apartments listed in Airbnb call themselvefs in Monaco, but they are in nearby France city Beausoleil.
Russia/China will not affect Monaco price market, because Russians don't buy property in Monaco that much. Mainly they rent properties. Chinese and other Asians don't buy properties in Monaco.
Mostly all owners are Italian, French, British and other EU countries and middle east.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

as far as olives and grapes goes, yes that can be lucrative, but it is hard work
you would have to do a lot of due diligence, such as checking the soil...
then you would have to find local work force(or import them), then sell the product (or make a final product such as olive oil, or wine)
i think it is hard work, with too many things to fail

wine requires a lot of work, but oil it’s really easy. Literally, if you buy an established grove you will work just 10-30 days per year (depending on how big it is). Olive trees don’t need irrigation, fertilizers etc, they can be left by themselves with just the occasional pruning. You don’t need machinery, just a team of (non-European) hard working people to pick the olives when they are ready.
Using this method you can add to your oil the seal “100% bio” and ask a higher price. You will not become a billionaire but the investment will hold its value and the expenses should be covered by the production, plus a small profit.

Russia/China will not affect Monaco price market, because Russians don't buy property in Monaco that much. Mainly they rent properties. Chinese and other Asians don't buy properties in Monaco.
Mostly all owners are Italian, French, British and other EU countries and middle east.

I wonder who will pay €100k per sqm in Mareterra?

 

[Konstanz]

Yes is true that most of Monaco residents have vilas in nearby France and other countries.
But Monaco residents are rich people who travel around the world.
It does not say Monaco is bad to live.

wine requires a lot of work, but oil it’s really easy. Literally, if you buy an established grove you will work just 10-30 days per year (depending on how big it is). Olive trees don’t need irrigation, fertilizers etc, they can be left by themselves with just the occasional pruning. You don’t need machinery, just a team of (non-European) hard working people to pick the olives when they are ready.
Using this method you can add to your oil the seal “100% bio” and ask a higher price. You will not become a billionaire but the investment will hold its value and the expenses should be covered by the production, plus a small profit.


I wonder who will pay €100k per sqm in Mareterra?

I heard Maraterra is almost bought out /reserved

 

[Martin Everson]

what are the pluses and minuses of purchasing reale state in Monaco?

I would say another threat is Monaco's land reclamation that could soften prices a little long term but that would in the ultra high end apartments. Monaco's land mass has been expanding over last century also..by 20% I believe. And it will continue to expand with new reclamation projects further into the sea.

But overall Monaco is a good investment with very low taxes on rental income. Just don't go near any property that comes under Law 887 etc.

 

[sergeylim88]

how do you check if the property is under law 887?

how does the purchase process works, do i have to have a real estate agent?
i see online their fees are quite high (around 8% in total, 5% buyer, 3% seller), is there any way to avoid them?

 

[Konstanz]

how do you check if the property is under law 887?

how does the purchase process works, do i have to have a real estate agent?
i see online their fees are quite high (around 8% in total, 5% buyer, 3% seller), is there any way to avoid them?

You must have real estate agent to buy property in Monaco.
Keep in mind Notary fee will be around 7.5% and real estate will charge you ~2-3% + VAT.
So, in total you will spend at least ~10-12% for purchase in charges.
About law 887 will tell you the agent. All information is always available and nothing is hidden.
You can find all real estate on the market here: La Chambre Immobilière Monégasque

 

[sergeylim88]

i would be buying the property as a physical person (not offshore entity), isn't the transfer tax 4.5% and notary from 1.5% - 2.5%?
i did find some apartments that are listed as private seller, do I still need agent then?

thank you for your answer

 

[Konstanz]

i would be buying the property as a physical person (not offshore entity), isn't the transfer tax 4.5% and notary from 1.5% - 2.5%?
i did find some apartments that are listed as private seller, do I still need agent then?

thank you for your answer

Were did you find "private seller"?
Notary fee is less 2.5% only for NEW properties. If it's old property it's always ~7%

 

[JohnnyDoe]

This one is not bad: 5 rooms house / villa for sale in Monaco

 

[sergeylim88]

Were did you find "private seller"?
Notary fee is less 2.5% only for NEW properties. If it's old property it's always ~7%

on some ads i watched online
does the notary fee include the property transfer tax?
any hints how to save money in this purchasing process?

This one is not bad: 5 rooms house / villa for sale in Monaco

above budget by far

 

[Konstanz]

realistically you will not save anything. As I said. It will be around 10%. Average buy price of real estate in Monaco is ~4.5 m EUR
Monaco is not place to buy cheap

 

[JohnnyDoe]

above budget by far

Everything else I see has zero attractiveness. Maybe a garage/parking space.

 

[sergeylim88]

Everything else I see has zero attractiveness. Maybe a garage/parking space.

there are some decent apartments (around 100m2) for 3.5MM
i will try to find an apartment for renovation if possible to get one cheaper

realistically you will not save anything. As I said. It will be around 10%. Average buy price of real estate in Monaco is ~4.5 m EUR
Monaco is not place to buy cheap

do you think it is worth it to get an apartment for renovation, and do them your self (i am quite handy at those things)?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

there are some decent apartments (around 100m2) for 3.5MM
i will try to find an apartment for renovation if possible to get one cheaper

I don’t think that something being just “decent” qualifies as a good investment.

do you think it is worth it to get an apartment for renovation, and do them your self (i am quite handy at those things)?

How do you stand out in such a crowded market?
How do you recover the high purchase fees?
Do you have established relationships with builders in the area?
Can you buy materials at good prices?

I don’t know why you are so fond of Monaco, but with $3m you could diversify and buy 2-3 properties in other places that at least you can put on AirBnb.