Offshore payout structure for Italian tax resident

[JohnnyDoe]

@JohnnyDoe Do you know if I might be able to pay the flat tax directly from my company account? Adding on to this, if I’m accepted and pay the tax, will dissolving the company and wiring all cash to private held accounts make it a tax free transaction?

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction with the type of wallet I should be looking for

You can send the money to your accountant from any account and he will pay the taxes for you, no problem with that, it’s what I do.

@JohnnyDoe @marioIT Given the deadline for worldwide asset declaration and tax payment being June, what do you two think might be the risks of not declaring foreign assets for 2021 but paying all due normal taxes (including dividends from BVIco), cutting all ties with Italy and relocating to a tax haven, making it my new tax residence for 2022?

if you are planning to move (but you need to do that for real! Leave no assets in Italy) I suggest you only pay the 100k for 2021 and run away as fast as you can. You still need to close the company and hide the money, but you have good chances to avoid troubles.

Important! You must move out of Italy AND register in the AIRE before June 30 in order to avoid paying taxes for 2022 (in 2023).

Note that everything always depends on how much money is at stake. If it is 6 figures you should be able to sleep well. 7 figures you might need to take some sleeping pills, 8 figures you enter into litigation area and you should better find a good lawyer as Italy will try all tricks to take some money from you. I am paying the 100k tax only to keep them happy as I technically have nothing to do with Italy but still it is less expensive than going to court.

 

[CyprusLawyer101]

Just got a confirmation from my accountant, if I pay the 100k flat tax now, it will only apply for 2021 - meaning that I’d pay a hefty 100k only to remove the obligation of declaring all foreign assets held in 2021 (RW form).

This also means that if keep my Italian tax residence in 2022 and choose to dissolve the company and move the funds to myself now, I’d have to pay another 100k flat tax this time next year for it to cover 2022.

@JohnnyDoe @marioIT Given the deadline for worldwide asset declaration and tax payment being June, what do you two think might be the risks of not declaring foreign assets for 2021 but paying all due normal taxes (including dividends from BVIco), cutting all ties with Italy and relocating to a tax haven, making it my new tax residence for 2022?


So dissolving the company and moving funds to myself might still trigger risks on the German side, regardless of Italian flat tax, right? Regarding Germany, I still have a few ties binding me to the country.

The BVI has no business operations as of now but sold a US apartment in 2021 at a loss.

In the absence of income generated from the sale of the apartment, who do you consider that there is any taxable income/exposure?

Just moving funds should not trigger taxation.

Of course I have no practical experience in Italy so a local advisor should be able to put things in place for you.

 

[marioIT]

Important! You must move out of Italy AND register in the AIRE before June 30 in order to avoid paying taxes for 2022 (in 2023).

he said he is not italian. That registry (AIRE) is only for italian citizens abroad. He doesn't have to do that if he's not italian.
But he must still go to the city hall and remove himself from the local citizens' registration office, telling them he's moving abroad.
Agree on doing this before june if you decide to move, as the date of this declaration is usually one of the many things they try to use against you to deem yourself tax-resident for the whole year (the 183 days rule).
I think they'll want the new address, country etc
Also IIRC in italy the tax agency has like 8 years to catch you by law. So they've got time to f* people!

 

[JohnnyDoe]

he said he is not italian. That registry (AIRE) is only for italian citizens abroad. He doesn't have to do that if he's not italian.
But he must still go to the city hall and remove himself from the local citizens' registration office, telling them he's moving abroad.
Agree on doing this before june if you decide to move, as the date of this declaration is usually one of the many things they try to use against you to deem yourself tax-resident for the whole year (the 183 days rule).
I think they'll want the new address, country etc
Also IIRC in italy the tax agency has like 8 years to catch you by law. So they've got time to f* people!

Good for him he is not Italian. So yes he just needs to cancel himself from the register of resident population.
Not being Italian makes it less likely for Italy to go after him abroad.

 

[calnana]

Note to self: never move to italy….

 

[Hito]

In the absence of income generated from the sale of the apartment, who do you consider that there is any taxable income/exposure?

Just moving funds should not trigger taxation.

Of course I have no practical experience in Italy so a local advisor should be able to put things in place for you.

Won’t moving cash from company level to personal normally trigger a tax event? Salary and dividends from an active company are taxed, I’d be (pleasantly) surprised if the tax man wouldn’t want a piece of a much larger sum albeit from a dissolved company.

he said he is not italian. That registry (AIRE) is only for italian citizens abroad. He doesn't have to do that if he's not italian.
But he must still go to the city hall and remove himself from the local citizens' registration office, telling them he's moving abroad.
Agree on doing this before june if you decide to move, as the date of this declaration is usually one of the many things they try to use against you to deem yourself tax-resident for the whole year (the 183 days rule).
I think they'll want the new address, country etc
Also IIRC in italy the tax agency has like 8 years to catch you by law. So they've got time to f* people!

Mario, just to clarify, are you saying that the actual submission of the form in June of 2022 for the fiscal year 2021, can be held as proof for their argument that I spent Jan-June 2022 in Italy and was thereby a tax resident for a second consecutive year?

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Note to self: never move to italy….

Go to Italy only for vacation! And possibly you should learn a bit of Italian as you will hardly be understood in English…

 

[RealDude]

i have been to italy many times on vacation and have probably seen more of the country than the average local. i don't speak a word of italian and yet had no language barriers thanks to english. i even worked for a large italian consulting firm once.

 

[Marzio]

i don't speak a word of italian and yet had no language barriers thanks to english.

You don't need to speak english, you only need to learn this and you'll be fine in Italy.

 

[calnana]

Joking aside, is it really that bad if you're not Italian, and move to Italy for a couple of years? Assuming you pay the 100k flat rate.

 

[RealDude]

Andy Möller said once: "Mailand oder Madrid, Hauptsache Italien! “

 

[JohnnyDoe]

Joking aside, is it really that bad if you're not Italian, and move to Italy for a couple of years? Assuming you pay the 100k flat rate.

In theory it is not bad. But expect to be investigated, because the assumption they make is that if you pay that tax you have something to hide.

 

[OffshorePhantom]

In Italy the best way is to declare enough revenue and live below your means, in this way even if you hide something it is not easy to find it out. Usually, many people get caught because they start buying expensive cars, villas, etc. Even if you declared everything, they try to find something on you if you live a luxury lifestyle, there is some kind of culture against rich people.
For example if you drive an expensive car expect to be stopped by GdF and be questioned.

My suggestion for those who want to live in Italy and maybe have something to hide (some undeclared assets) is to conduct a life below their means in Italy and that it is coherent (or even less) of what you declare in your tax returns.

 

[Hito]

@marioIT @JohnnyDoe @Martin Everson

If I pay the flat tax for 2021 & 2022, dissolve my BVI company and bring funds onshore - I can expect no issues in 2023 without foreign assets, right?

What are your thoughts on Italian banks? One risk of depositing in an Italian bank that I see would be in the event of a future move to a country with lower tax - I’d have to cut ties with it and move funds.

 

[uplana]

Quickly before s**t hits the fan. Dissolve the company, close the account, delete all traces, documents etc (for real! They might come in your house and confiscate your pc/phone/archive). Try at least to make their job difficult and to save what you can, whatever it costs. If you don’t act, you will lose everything and possibly more.

are they really going to do that in Italy? WOW WOW

 

[Martin Everson]

Could an admin please move this to the Tax section in the forum?

Thread moved.

Yes, I’m a tax resident as of 2021 after having moved there for a new job.

Ok so your BVI income prior to you move to Italy would be considered capital by Italian taxman hence not taxed. After your residency in Italy any further money earned is income and taxable by them.

So dissolving the company and moving funds to myself might still trigger risks on the German side, regardless of Italian flat tax, right? Regarding Germany, I still have a few ties binding me to the country.

Since March 2021 BVI has to automatically report its companies to UBO's country where no substance exists in BVI for that company. Depending on which country they have for you on record it will already have been reported to that countries taxman. But could be some time before your contacted or investigated See below thread.

Twelve no/low tax countries share data on companies with no substance with UBO's country

Since March 2021 twelve countries now automatically share information on companies with no economic substance and where beneficial owners are non-resident. I think non-resident folk with companies in the below countries may be in for a letter from their tax man. Anguilla Bahamas Bahrain...

www.offshorecorptalk.com

The BVI has no business operations as of now but sold a US apartment in 2021 at a loss.

Then tax is owed to Italian taxman. The IBC will be tax resident wherever its place of operation, management and control is which is never BVI. Hence this will be wherever you are based as its a shell company I assume.

If I pay the flat tax for 2021 & 2022, dissolve my BVI company and bring funds onshore - I can expect no issues in 2023 without foreign assets, right?

Well the entity has been reported already. It's down to wherever it got reported to as to what issues you get.

What are your thoughts on Italian banks?

There is a reason Italians keep their money under their bed. Based on 2008 financial crisis and what happened to Unicredit where it was scrambling to recapitalize and still till today Monte Dei Pashi having troubles I would give a wide berth.

 

[JohnnyDoe]

@marioIT @JohnnyDoe @Martin Everson

If I pay the flat tax for 2021 & 2022, dissolve my BVI company and bring funds onshore - I can expect no issues in 2023 without foreign assets, right?

What are your thoughts on Italian banks? One risk of depositing in an Italian bank that I see would be in the event of a future move to a country with lower tax - I’d have to cut ties with it and move funds.

You must always expect issues with Italian tax authorities. As soon as they see the money they will try their best to take it away from you.

 

[Chris99]

In Italy the best way is to declare enough revenue and live below your means, in this way even if you hide something it is not easy to find it out. Usually, many people get caught because they start buying expensive cars, villas, etc. Even if you declared everything, they try to find something on you if you live a luxury lifestyle, there is some kind of culture against rich people.
For example if you drive an expensive car expect to be stopped by GdF and be questioned.

My suggestion for those who want to live in Italy and maybe have something to hide (some undeclared assets) is to conduct a life below their means in Italy and that it is coherent (or even less) of what you declare in your tax returns.

in general I agree with you, but here where I am, in a big Italian city, I constantly see Chinese from Wenzhou (also called the Jews of China) running around with luxury cars and designer clothes, they manage many high-end businesses and restaurants. level, they all have several properties in primary locations (they never rent) most of the time paid in cash… I know for a fact that they pay very little taxes ... I never understood how they do it….

 

[OffshorePhantom]

in general I agree with you, but here where I am, in a big Italian city, I constantly see Chinese from Wenzhou (also called the Jews of China) running around with luxury cars and designer clothes, they manage many high-end businesses and restaurants. level, they all have several properties in primary locations (they never rent) most of the time paid in cash… I know for a fact that they pay very little taxes ... I never understood how they do it….

The Chinese government made an agreement with the Italian government and all those activities are taxed in China in theory. The Italian tax man is good at prosecuting Italian citizens but not that good with others.

Also it seems not that good in collecting taxes owed: Italy has stockpile of 1,100 bn of uncollected taxes-Ruffini - English

If you fly under the radar there is a good chance you do not get caught since they already have a lot of work catching a lot of people. The system is extremely inefficient at the moment.

Italy wants to play the role of G7 world power while in the end, it is more like a third-world country in decadence

 

[Hito]

Thanks for the feedback and the link @Martin Everson

By the way guys, in the flat tax description, what is meant by the part in bold:

• The mentioned tax regime could substitute:
  
  • the income tax on foreign investments (foreign interests, dividends, and capital gains) with the exception of capital gains on qualified participation earned in the first five years