Relocate to Switzerland, how to?

[JohnLocke]

If you think it is possible I will have to try to submit this to a tax advisor in Zug. Personally for me it sounds a little too good to be true, but you never know.

After all, I have been around different countries the last year without perma residency anywhere and have learned a lot compared to the country I come from.

 

[Marzio]

Personally for me it sounds a little too good to be true, but you never know.

Company's money aren't shareholder's money.

A company could realize 1.000.000 CHF in profits and shareholder could live in his mom's basement because he is not paying himself any dividends waiting to accumulate enough capital within the company to make an investment.

No tax adiministration will force you to take out any sum from the company if you pay yourself the minimum salary for your role.

 

[icecold]

If the shareholder wants to keep after tax profits in the company he could certainly do so and take out only 30.000 CHF as a salary if he feels to.

You think it will work like this?

How about Social Security, I can't find anywhere it is mentioned. In Germany for instant you need an insurance and you need to pay for a "Krankenkasse" how does it work in Switzerland, same way? If so, where to figure out the costs for it - I need a free doctor and hospital!

 

[Marzio]

You think it will work like this?

I'll blow you away with some novel concept you probably never heard: you take out of the company the money you want / need for living expenses and leave the rest in the company to grow the company.

If so, where to figure out the costs for it - I need a free doctor and hospital

https://en.comparis.ch/krankenkassen/default

 

[myhand]

Costs are the same as in Germany more or less 100 CHF / month.

 

[JackAlabama]

Costs are the same as in Germany more or less 100 CHF / month.

Only for young, more like 200-300.

 

[backpacker]

Costs are the same as in Germany more or less 100 CHF / month.

Well, that was 25 years ago!

If you want a half-decent package, you should calculate at least CHF 300.-/month for a middle-aged person.

 

[myhand]

yeah sorry for the confusion. I meant to say that it is the same as in Germany i.e. roughly 800 - 1000 euro / month +/- 100 €

Now I'm surprised to see that you guys say 300 CHF - is that including Dentist, Hospital and Doctor ? I believe it is the basic basic standard insurance you mean?

 

[JackAlabama]

yeah sorry for the confusion. I meant to say that it is the same as in Germany i.e. roughly 800 - 1000 euro / month +/- 100 €

Now I'm surprised to see that you guys say 300 CHF - is that including Dentist, Hospital and Doctor ? I believe it is the basic basic standard insurance you mean?

Basically nothing is included in such a lowish price. You will have a 4 digit deductible, pay for dentist etc.

 

[backpacker]

Basically nothing is included in such a lowish price. You will have a 4 digit deductible, pay for dentist etc.

Correct. Dentist is always separate and deductible is highest possible.
With this premium the insuraceis only good for emergency and extremely expensive things.
On the other hand: Do one really need more? Insurance should be for emergency. All other stuff is better paid out of pocket.

 

[daniels27]

I'll blow you away with some novel concept you probably never heard: you take out of the company the money you want / need for living expenses and leave the rest in the company to grow the company.

No, it will not work if it is your company. You need to pay wealth taxes. A company making 1 Mio. will be worth 14 Mio (7% ROI calculation). The wealth tax will be about 25k already. Hence, you will have to pay out minimum 70k. With the 10% retirement contribution and taxes, you will then end up at the desired 30k.

But then comes the problem. If a poor Swiss makes 30k, he will get health insurance subsidy, Wohnbeihilfe, almost no taxes, etc. You won't be eligible for anything like this as you own 15 Mio (from the 7% ROI calculation).

That's why it won't work.

And even without the company, you will probably run into troubles as the retirement contributions will be fairly low. I would not recommend declaring less than 70k income.

Health insurance can be as low as 300 if you are far away from retirement.

 

[EliasIT]

But if you don't make such high profits at all and still want to live in Switzerland because of other reasons not discussed much here, it may be worth it.

If the company makes 250K EUR in Profits each year and you only take out 6000 EUR / month you may stay under the radar and don't pay much taxes nor alot of other stuff, or what do you think ?

 

[Marzio]

A company making 1 Mio

If these are profits then it's not what i was talking about, i was talking about leaving the money in the company to grow the company AKA reinvesting.

Keeping 1Mln in the company is not reinvesting.

 

[daniels27]

If these are profits then it's not what i was talking about, i was talking about leaving the money in the company to grow the company AKA reinvesting.

Keeping 1Mln in the company is not reinvesting.

You said leave the rest in the company. It is fairly simple.

If it is profits, the company gets taxed on the profits and the owner pays wealth tax on the company value (15 x profit).

If you grow the company, it will work for as long as you stay in Switzerland. If you leave, you will pay tax on the goodwill of the company value.

In any case, you will have to pay for your success.

But if you don't make such high profits at all and still want to live in Switzerland because of other reasons not discussed much here, it may be worth it.

If the company makes 250K EUR in Profits each year and you only take out 6000 EUR / month you may stay under the radar and don't pay much taxes nor alot of other stuff, or what do you think ?

Ok, I took the time to read all the stuff written here.

1. I think you could have mentioned at the beginning that you are from Denmark and do not expect expat lifestyle. Switzerland has many Germans coming and the figuring out that the Swiss rarely eat in restaurants as it it expensive. All the other that complain about the meat price etc. Many of them leave after a while. If you are used to do all stuff on your own, you probably will like it. If you need people doing the work for you, there are places where you get more.

2. Your furniture issue. I recommend you storing it in Germany, it is much cheaper and you do not have to deal with customs. Why nobody mentioned this? Because you have not mentioned that you are in Denmark. Apart from that there are occasionally some basement bunker units for sale, I think with 10k you could be able to buy one. The annual costs will then probably be around 300. Otherwise, you can rent for about 100. Just check comparis.

3. Your tax question. Yes, it does work for the time you are in Switzerland. But the what with all the profits? You eventually have to get them out and pay for it. Also, you will be subject to exit tax on the company goodwill when you leave the country. I personally would not recommend your setup. It sounds good to save 90k per year today. Tomorrow, you will be back here trying to save another 150k per year by moving out of Switzerland because whatever reason. Honestly, unless you are sure you want to stay in Switzerland for the rest of your life, you are better off incorporating in a low-tax country and hiring a guy there. You can register as self employed and write quarterly invoices to your company. (You will need about 3 customers to register but after that, there are no more questions.) There are many jurisdictions which offer 15% tax or less and do not tax dividends, you are better off like that as you can then disburse your dividends in the future without having to pay another 25% on top of it. Feel free to PM me.

 

[Marzio]

If you grow the company, it will work for as long as you stay in Switzerland. If you leave, you will pay tax on the goodwill of the company value.

I agree at some point if you stop reinvesting the wealtht tax will kick in but what if you setup a holding abroad in a country like Estonia with a proper director and office so that you will distribute dividends to the holding and keep very little profits in the AG?

 

[daniels27]

I agree at some point if you stop reinvesting the wealtht tax will kick in but what if you setup a holding abroad in a country like Estonia with a proper director and office so that you will distribute dividends to the holding and keep very little profits in the AG?

The wealth tax is only one problem. The problem is that if you reinvest your profits, you will create goodwill. I.e. if you reinvest all into marketing, you are trying to gain market share and built your own brand. At some point, your company will have a brand of substantial value. Of course, you can keep the company and just be happy. But more likely, you will at some point

1. Sell it
2. Move away

In both cases, you will ultimately pay tax on the goodwill your reinvestments created.

Yes, you can create a holding in Estonia. I think they still tax the dividends, so you probably come down to like 10% to 20% of tax on the profit. I think there are other countries more suitable for that objective which effectively allow 0%.

 

[Marzio]

you will ultimately pay tax on the goodwill your reinvestments created

Isn't this counterproductive for Switzerland? Why would they disincentivize people from growing a business by putting a tax on goodwill created by reinvestments?

I think they still tax the dividends

There are no WHT on dividends distributed to an Estonian company that holds at least 10% of the shares and this is of course the case for a holding company that holds 100% of shares of a Swiss AG but yes, there are other options too.

 

[JohnLocke]

In both cases, you will ultimately pay tax on the goodwill your reinvestments created.

What if you move away and keep the company in Switzerland? How is that different from you setup the company in Switzerland but live abroad?

 

[daniels27]

What if you move away and keep the company in Switzerland? How is that different from you setup the company in Switzerland but live abroad?

Both is only possible if the company is managed from Switzerland. Otherwise, they will close it and charge goodwill tax, resp. not open it. There are better jurisdictions that allow companies to be managed from outside and also do not charge tax in this case. (On the other hand, if you manage a foreign company from within Switzerland, the Swiss will consider it to be a Swiss company. That's why you only open the company if you want to live there. Otherwise, you won't need it and there is no benefit in doing so.)

Isn't this counterproductive for Switzerland? Why would they disincentivize people from growing a business by putting a tax on goodwill created by reinvestments?

There are no WHT on dividends distributed to an Estonian company that holds at least 10% of the shares and this is of course the case for a holding company that holds 100% of shares of a Swiss AG but yes, there are other options too.

I think more companies are leaving Switzerland than there are potentials coming our OP clearly is among the minority here. That's why they formalised the goodwill taxation and charge it.

I think there is profit tax and WHT in Estonia. Please let me know if I am wrong. As far as I know most people use Ireland, Malta, etc.

 

[Marzio]

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