Swissquote - Source of funds

[trek]

Bought BTC in 2014 (can prove fiat to crypto) and converted it to ETH, altcoins, and back to BTC. Haven't traded much overall but when I download the CSV files from exchanges those are huge – as you know, some orders get filled by many smaller transactions. Also, some altcoins have staking, airdrops, etc. It is really a mess to make sense of it. Heck, even myself I'm lost trying to figure out the path!

I'd like to cash out some of the crypto I hold and it seems Swissquote is a good option. In order to prove the source of funds, I could send them all the CSV files from exchanges with thousands of rows, but would this be enough? I would like to avoid the situation that I send them my crypto, and they freeze it for weeks until they decide.

Has anyone gone through the process of proving the source of funds? What do they usually ask for?

 

[Martin Everson]

In order to prove the source of funds, I could send them all the CSV files from exchanges with thousands of rows, but would this be enough?

Some general advice. CSV of trading action has very little to do with source of funds. They are interested in where you got the fiat to buy the crypto in first place. That's what source of funds means. You have that data so show that to them and show them the movement of those funds to the exchanges. Then you can add on the trading activity data and you should be covered in principle. Make it as simple as possible and organize data like i.e

1. I earned 50k from selling my kidney here is receipt
2. I transferred 25k to two exchanges here is wire doc
3. I made 1m from trading crypto here is transactions

 

[Fred]

Martin is right.

We have strong ties to Swissquote in the DIFC here in Dubai.

Most important is Bank Statement from back in 2014 with the deposit to an Exchange like Kraken - beside of that they just want to see Screenshots of your profile and the deposit history at the Exchange.

They only care really about where the Fiat Money is coming from back in the days.

 

[trek]

Thanks for the answers!

Most important is Bank Statement from back in 2014 with the deposit to an Exchange

Damn it! Just checked my bank and they allow statements up to 2015 . Would a screenshot of localbitcoins work?

 

[Sols]

Damn it! Just checked my bank and they allow statements up to 2015 .

Banks are required to keep data for much longer than just the last six years. But you may need to ask your bank for a bank statement for a period as far back as 2014. They might charge you for it, but it's usually pretty reasonable.

 

[Fred]

Thanks for the answers!


Damn it! Just checked my bank and they allow statements up to 2015 . Would a screenshot of localbitcoins work?

They can provide you with a turnover overview even when you already closed tha account with them years ago.

 

[lory]

Some general advice. CSV of trading action has very little to do with source of funds. They are interested in where you got the fiat to buy the crypto in first place. That's what source of funds means. You have that data so show that to them and show them the movement of those funds to the exchanges. Then you can add on the trading activity data and you should be covered in principle. Make it as simple as possible and organize data like i.e

1. I earned 50k from selling my kidney here is receipt
2. I transferred 25k to two exchanges here is wire doc
3. I made 1m from trading crypto here is transactions

best advise you can get from here!

 

[Dreamy]

Btw, anybody know, swissquote support clients from not EU countries?

 

[tsu458]

Martin is right.

We have strong ties to Swissquote in the DIFC here in Dubai.

Most important is Bank Statement from back in 2014 with the deposit to an Exchange like Kraken - beside of that they just want to see Screenshots of your profile and the deposit history at the Exchange.

They only care really about where the Fiat Money is coming from back in the days.

At wich sum does it become a problem if there is no wire to exchange or invoice document? If you got paid for freelance work for example, mid 4 figures. Happened to me in the early days, portfolio grew with these funds and additional EUR to exchange wires.

To this day I'm scared if I ever run into this SoF problem, even when cashing out 500k while just 5k of initial inflow are not documented in a way banks like.

 

[BlueMist]

Btw, anybody know, swissquote support clients from not EU countries?

Yes, they do. One thing I don't like about SQ is that no matter if you hold €1m or €10m investments with them, you still get the same generic support without any dedicated line or RM. I was hoping this will change with the tiers they introduced but it did not, so gave up on them and quit.

There is SQ Luxembourg, Switzerland and UAE DIFC version which in fact is based in Switzerland. The UAE is the worst option as they don't have caps on custody fees, so it is always better to setup an account directly with either LU or CH, instead of AE. I don't think there is any real benefit of going through AE, unless you want to open corporate account which costs something like $1200 per year if I am correct.

I read SQ LU T&C quite detailed and they are not clear as to who is the nominee custodian shareholder of the shares.

 

[Fred]

Yes, they do. One thing I don't like about SQ is that no matter if you hold €1m or €10m investments with them, you still get the same generic support without any dedicated line or RM. I was hoping this will change with the tiers they introduced but it did not, so gave up on them and quit.

There is SQ Luxembourg, Switzerland and UAE DIFC version which in fact is based in Switzerland. The UAE is the worst option as they don't have caps on custody fees, so it is always better to setup an account directly with either LU or CH, instead of AE. I don't think there is any real benefit of going through AE, unless you want to open corporate account which costs something like $1200 per year if I am correct.

I read SQ LU T&C quite detailed and they are not clear as to who is the nominee custodian shareholder of the shares.

The point of the UAE DIFC Entity is to get onboarded directly with them under the DIFC License starting from 1m$ with a Corporate Structure to avoid Swiss Stamp Duty and getting Instituational Schedule of Charges which makes a difference depending on your Trade Volume.

You are absolutely right about there support - they have 1-2 very competent guys that are completely overloaded with work but for this you get compared to other Switzerland Private Banks an acceptable fee structure of 0.15% Custody and 0.1% trading fee while the norm with Private Banks in Switzerland is 0.25%+ Custody and up to 1% trading fee.

It can't be compared with CITI SG IPB or the SC/HSBC Version of it but they don't let you bank a Holding Co / Foundation / Trust Structure unless 10m$.

So for more complex structures Swissquote DIFC UAE makes definitely sense for self directed investors before getting nailed with classic Switzerland Private Banking Fees + Stamp Duty.

 

[sublety22]

Anyone got a tip how to go about it if you bought crypto for cash and you can't prove SoF? I have on chain transactions where it shows that I purchase x token at x date on decentralized exchanges and I can refer to graphs that shows how much it has grown since then. I don't have any invoices that shows that I ever bought crypto. My portfolio has grown to 7 figures and i'm afraid I will never be able to use the money for jack s**t because I wasn't thinking about this stuff back then. And I never thought I would be able to grow my portfolio to anything substancial where I would need to cash out big figures to use it buy important things.

 

[BoomBoom]

Anyone got a tip how to go about it if you bought crypto for cash and you can't prove SoF? I have on chain transactions where it shows that I purchase x token at x date on decentralized exchanges and I can refer to graphs that shows how much it has grown since then. I don't have any invoices that shows that I ever bought crypto. My portfolio has grown to 7 figures and i'm afraid I will never be able to use the money for jack s**t because I wasn't thinking about this stuff back then. And I never thought I would be able to grow my portfolio to anything substancial where I would need to cash out big figures to use it buy important things.

Do you remember how you got your first crypto? bank transfer to exchange? credit card purchase?
This is what they are interested most. They need to know that the original funds that went into crypto were yours and clean.

 

[sublety22]

No I can't prove that. I a few purchases for small amounts but if you do chain analyzis on those then you would not be able to see any connections betwen those and what I have now. Like I said I purchased most of what I have for cash at the time. I may have a trail of 1 bitcoin bought for 7-8 years ago and the invoice of it but again, you can't tell where it leads. I don't see any bank accepting that as proof. I have also kept much of the money in monero for it's privacy trading on sites where you don't have to register.

I like privacy and I prefer to trade off exchanges if I can because you never know if they will seize your funds and start demanding answers for this or that or selfies and what not and so this is the way I have been doing it for the longest time.

99% of the value I have today is on chain but the money before that I can't prove where it comes from. Am I totally fucked? I'm so depressed of how difficult the rules have made it today cash out from crypto.

 

[Martin Everson]

Like I said I purchased most of what I have for cash at the time.

Can you prove where you got the cash is the question?

Am I totally fucked?

Not necessarily. Can you answer the above question on where you got the cash. It's not an offense to buy stuff with cash if the cash has a credible source. But if you say you cannot prove even where you got the cash then your out of luck. Your next best bet is to just buy assets directly with crypto assuming your tax affairs are all in order.

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

No I can't prove that. I a few purchases for small amounts but if you do chain analyzis on those then you would not be able to see any connections betwen those and what I have now. Like I said I purchased most of what I have for cash at the time. I may have a trail of 1 bitcoin bought for 7-8 years ago and the invoice of it but again, you can't tell where it leads. I don't see any bank accepting that as proof. I have also kept much of the money in monero for it's privacy trading on sites where you don't have to register.

I like privacy and I prefer to trade off exchanges if I can because you never know if they will seize your funds and start demanding answers for this or that or selfies and what not and so this is the way I have been doing it for the longest time.

99% of the value I have today is on chain but the money before that I can't prove where it comes from.

It doesn't matter whether you buy it with cash, bank transfers, gold...etc. It doesn't matter.
BUT What matter is how it makes sense to the bank, specifically, the compliance department in the bank, and this differ massively by country, your average highly paid compliance officer in Switzerland is very very different than the low paid compliance officers in Dubai.

Am I totally fucked? I'm so depressed of how difficult the rules have made it today cash out from crypto.

lol, of course not, I saw people here with far worse situations than yours and they cash out without problems, but it requires some work.

 

[sublety22]

So your question is, can you prove where you got your hands on the money you supposedly would have bought crypto with? If that is $ 1k, 2k, or even 5k. This is not much money in most western countries. Most people are able to set that aside given enough time, even if they are not highly payed. So why is this even something the bank want to know ? I can show bank notes from the era and provide reasonable credibility that I would have been able to buy so much crypto at that time and that that crypto would have risen in value. Yes that I can do. But showing I had a disposable income of say a few thousand dollars and have the bank believe I turned this into a fortune without being able to prove every point in the chain.

The average Joe would go on a exchange, deposit money there and not bother with privacy coin. You would be able to track his every move because he uses known exchanges. I believe you call this an "audit trail", correct me if i'm wrong.

I don't have that and my early history is let's say suspicious.

Sorry didn't mean to evade your question. Yes I can prove that I have a monthly income which comes from a legit source. Although it's not very high.

 

[BoomBoom]

Yes I can prove that I have a monthly income which comes from a legit source. Although it's not very high

This is what the bank wants.
For example, If you were salary paid 3k a month and you invested 5k in crypto in cash and traded since then and now 7 figures, you can work with it. Try to find any more paper-trail of the cash withdrawal maybe and the first transaction which matches 5k in value at time of transaction.
It is not easy but you are not strewed. You need to be direct with the bank and your explanations and don't add unnecessary complications.
I also would suggest to transfer the fiat/crypto to the bank from reputable exchange (not binance)

 

[uplana]

Try to find any more paper-trail of the cash withdrawal maybe and the first transaction which matches 5k in value at time of transaction.

or you will need someone to produce it for you if you can't find such anywhere!

 

[sublety22]

Yep. Would need to be someone who runs a business who does some what well who has a reputation who can vouch for it. Got any suggestions ?