10M.+ optimization tax residency when you have 3/4 bases.

[toums]

Let’s say :

You are in your late 30s
Single / no kids (not planning to have kids from medium to long term)
EU citizen
Expatriate since 10years+
You have 10M.+ in liquidity / easily liquid (big part from crypto) and few real estate.
Almost 100% of your income came from passive (interests, dividends, crypto capital gain and few rental investments). No business involved actually.

Your plan is to stay in Europe for the ‘good’ season, let’s say may-october, then staying outside Europe for the other 6/7months..
You currently have a « not bad » tax residency (NHR Portugal, but not fully optimized let’s say) and you don’t know if you want to keep it.

You don’t want to stay especially 5/6months anywhere. During the October-may period, most probably you want to spend time In Thailand / SEA countries… and when you are in Europe, you want to have 2 base (capital in Central Europe, where you already own a nice flat and some real estate investments) AND somewhere else next to the sea / ocean (still Lisbon? Or Malta, or Italy.. you don’t know yet).
Since years, you don’t spend more than like 1 month in your citizenship country, and you don’t plan to spend more time there in the future.

What would be the easiest / stressless way for your tax residency ?

A) Invest in a flat in Dubai for 2M AED and get the visa / emirates ID. Registered you in the consulate / embassy with your UAE address to get your consular card that you live in UAE. Or just low fee by acting as a freelance and get your visa for average 3-4K a year, but no address.
I know you have to stay at least 90days now in UAE to get a tax certificate residence, but would be not my first choice (don’t want to send all this time there).
At the same time, is the tax certificate residence REALLY important if you are not 6 months anymore, and no business / main activity in any of the other countries you will spend the year?

B) Tax residency in Thailand, as I heard the new regulation doesn’t concern the money not remitted in Thailand, and mostly of my money earned are already in fiat or stable coin so it was ‘earned’ before 2024. I understood Thailand still don’t tax foreign / passive income not linked with Thailand. Crypto, I saw there is a WHT tax of 15% on capital gain (would be my main problem for the future, as I want to keep a % of my global wealth in Bitcoin/crypto).

C) I keep for now my NHR tax scheme in Portugal, but not optimized for capital gain (except for crypto for now, but we don’t know in the near future if they will not change it and be more strict on it), also some blacklist countries from Portugal (making tax at 35% if dividends, interests came from these juridictions), and globally I was thinking to take some distance with Europe for tax residency, for more individual protection and adding 1 layer vs EU.

D) Any other suggestions I didn’t think about.


Greetings.

 

[jafo]

Let’s say :

You are in your late 30s
Single / no kids (not planning to have kids from medium to long term)
EU citizen
Expatriate since 10years+
You have 10M.+ in liquidity / easily liquid (big part from crypto) and few real estate.
Almost 100% of your income came from passive (interests, dividends, crypto capital gain and few rental investments). No business involved actually.

Your plan is to stay in Europe for the ‘good’ season, let’s say may-october, then staying outside Europe for the other 6/7months..
You currently have a « not bad » tax residency (NHR Portugal, but not fully optimized let’s say) and you don’t know if you want to keep it.

You don’t want to stay especially 5/6months anywhere. During the October-may period, most probably you want to spend time In Thailand / SEA countries… and when you are in Europe, you want to have 2 base (capital in Central Europe, where you already own a nice flat and some real estate investments) AND somewhere else next to the sea / ocean (still Lisbon? Or Malta, or Italy.. you don’t know yet).
Since years, you don’t spend more than like 1 month in your citizenship country, and you don’t plan to spend more time there in the future.

What would be the easiest / stressless way for your tax residency ?

A) Invest in a flat in Dubai for 2M AED and get the visa / emirates ID. Registered you in the consulate / embassy with your UAE address to get your consular card that you live in UAE. Or just low fee by acting as a freelance and get your visa for average 3-4K a year, but no address.
I know you have to stay at least 90days now in UAE to get a tax certificate residence, but would be not my first choice (don’t want to send all this time there).
At the same time, is the tax certificate residence REALLY important if you are not 6 months anymore, and no business / main activity in any of the other countries you will spend the year?

B) Tax residency in Thailand, as I heard the new regulation doesn’t concern the money not remitted in Thailand, and mostly of my money earned are already in fiat or stable coin so it was ‘earned’ before 2024. I understood Thailand still don’t tax foreign / passive income not linked with Thailand. Crypto, I saw there is a WHT tax of 15% on capital gain (would be my main problem for the future, as I want to keep a % of my global wealth in Bitcoin/crypto).

C) I keep for now my NHR tax scheme in Portugal, but not optimized for capital gain (except for crypto for now, but we don’t know in the near future if they will not change it and be more strict on it), also some blacklist countries from Portugal (making tax at 35% if dividends, interests came from these juridictions), and globally I was thinking to take some distance with Europe for tax residency, for more individual protection and adding 1 layer vs EU.

D) Any other suggestions I didn’t think about.


Greetings.

D)

FFS!
You all NEED to STOP getting in your own way. This destructive behavior is NOT conducive to a healthy mind and body! STOP d1cking around with unnecessary risks (e.g., tax agencies hungry to rob you) that bring NO benefits AT ALL!

At 10M, you are in the top 99.8% of the population. This means IRL that in 10,000 people, there is ONLY one other person like you or more prosperous. So, literally, there are 9998 people trying to ROB or K1ll you to keep what is yours (I'm exaggerating, of course... only 9995, but you get the point! )

 

[wellington]

D)

FFS!
You all NEED to STOP getting in your own way. This destructive behavior is NOT conducive to a healthy mind and body! STOP d1cking around with unnecessary risks (e.g., tax agencies hungry to rob you) that bring NO benefits AT ALL!

View attachment 6447
At 10M, you are in the top 99.8% of the population. This means IRL that in 10,000 people, there is ONLY one other person like you or more prosperous. So, literally, there are 9998 people trying to ROB or K1ll you to keep what is yours (I'm exaggerating, of course... only 9995, but you get the point! )

1) Issue you have is you want privacy, outing yourself with 10m + is dangerous - especially in the UEWO world.
2) Monaco - is no fun if youthful, after a period.

B) Tax residency in Thailand, as I heard the new regulation doesn’t concern the money not remitted in Thailand, and mostly of my money earned are already in fiat or stable coin so it was ‘earned’ before 2024. I understood Thailand still don’t tax foreign / passive income not linked with Thailand. Crypto, I saw there is a WHT tax of 15% on capital gain (would be my main problem for the future, as I want to keep a % of my global wealth in Bitcoin/crypto).

Carry on doing what you are doing - as for Thailand the tax system has issued tax requirements and revoked them, one way to overcome this is

1) sell abroad - remit as income (pay tax)
2) sell abroad - remit as gift (family) if have partner from Thailand (tax free) 20m THB per year.

C) I keep for now my NHR tax scheme in Portugal, but not optimized for capital gain (except for crypto for now, but we don’t know in the near future if they will not change it and be more strict on it), also some blacklist countries from Portugal (making tax at 35% if dividends, interests came from these juridictions), and globally I was thinking to take some distance with Europe for tax residency, for more individual protection and adding 1 layer vs EU.

No need to do this if in Thailand, no tax unless remitted, put via a holding company if need extra tax protection layer.

 

[toums]

@jafo
Monaco is not an option. My citizenship doesn't give to me any advantage with Monaco tax residency.

@wellington

Not sure I understood what you said regarding : "
Carry on doing what you are doing - as for Thailand the tax system has issued tax requirements and revoked them, one way to overcome this is
1) sell abroad - remit as income (pay tax)"

Are you talking about the 15% WHT on crypto capital gain?
I don't have any relative in Thailand, so gift/donation you mentioned are not an option for me.

Regarding the holding company, you would use it for which part exactly? Thanks.

 

[JackAlabama]

Let’s say :

You are in your late 30s
Single / no kids (not planning to have kids from medium to long term)
EU citizen
Expatriate since 10years+
You have 10M.+ in liquidity / easily liquid (big part from crypto) and few real estate.
Almost 100% of your income came from passive (interests, dividends, crypto capital gain and few rental investments). No business involved actually.

Your plan is to stay in Europe for the ‘good’ season, let’s say may-october, then staying outside Europe for the other 6/7months..
You currently have a « not bad » tax residency (NHR Portugal, but not fully optimized let’s say) and you don’t know if you want to keep it.

You don’t want to stay especially 5/6months anywhere. During the October-may period, most probably you want to spend time In Thailand / SEA countries… and when you are in Europe, you want to have 2 base (capital in Central Europe, where you already own a nice flat and some real estate investments) AND somewhere else next to the sea / ocean (still Lisbon? Or Malta, or Italy.. you don’t know yet).
Since years, you don’t spend more than like 1 month in your citizenship country, and you don’t plan to spend more time there in the future.

What would be the easiest / stressless way for your tax residency ?

A) Invest in a flat in Dubai for 2M AED and get the visa / emirates ID. Registered you in the consulate / embassy with your UAE address to get your consular card that you live in UAE. Or just low fee by acting as a freelance and get your visa for average 3-4K a year, but no address.
I know you have to stay at least 90days now in UAE to get a tax certificate residence, but would be not my first choice (don’t want to send all this time there).
At the same time, is the tax certificate residence REALLY important if you are not 6 months anymore, and no business / main activity in any of the other countries you will spend the year?

B) Tax residency in Thailand, as I heard the new regulation doesn’t concern the money not remitted in Thailand, and mostly of my money earned are already in fiat or stable coin so it was ‘earned’ before 2024. I understood Thailand still don’t tax foreign / passive income not linked with Thailand. Crypto, I saw there is a WHT tax of 15% on capital gain (would be my main problem for the future, as I want to keep a % of my global wealth in Bitcoin/crypto).

C) I keep for now my NHR tax scheme in Portugal, but not optimized for capital gain (except for crypto for now, but we don’t know in the near future if they will not change it and be more strict on it), also some blacklist countries from Portugal (making tax at 35% if dividends, interests came from these juridictions), and globally I was thinking to take some distance with Europe for tax residency, for more individual protection and adding 1 layer vs EU.

D) Any other suggestions I didn’t think about.


Greetings.

what have you done until now and why not keep that going on? Seems to have worked 10y so why change.

 

[jafo]

2) Monaco - is no fun if youthful, after a period.

Monaco is NOT a prison! He doesn't have to stay there 100% of the time

Monaco is not an option. My citizenship doesn't give to me any advantage with Monaco tax residency.

Alors, vous êtes français?

UEWO world

What does this stand for?

PS. I googled, but nothing came up

what have you done until now and why not keep that going on? Seems to have worked 10y so why change.

Exactly!

Also, it seems he might be French since Monaco is NOT an option for him.

 

[toums]

what have you done until now and why not keep that going on? Seems to have worked 10y so why change.

Because I am looking also to optimize global tax scheme (NHR doesn't give me advantage for other capital gains). It also for limited time (max 10 years), and I consider to take (if possible, without a nightmare) distance with EU tax residency.

Monaco is NOT a prison! He doesn't have to stay there 100% of the time


Alors, vous êtes français?

Yes french. So Monaco is really not an option, and anyway not "enough" wealthy from my opinion for Monaco (even without FR citizenship).

 

[void]

wouldn't Italy with 100k lump sum tax yearly be an option?

 

[toums]

wouldn't Italy with 100k lump sum tax yearly be an option?

I don't know in detail regarding the 100K lump sum, but at first sight I would say NO for these reasons (even if i love Italy) :

a) Why paying 100K a year in another EU country regarding my type of income?
b) Still EU country
c) Agressive tax department country like France or Spain
d) is there 100% sure all these incomes would be validated (and not challenged) as foreign sourced?


Seems too much no no.

 

[JackAlabama]

I don't know in detail regarding the 100K lump sum, but at first sight I would say NO for these reasons (even if i love Italy) :

a) Why paying 100K a year in another EU country regarding my type of income?
b) Still EU country
c) Agressive tax department country like France or Spain
d) is there 100% sure all these incomes would be validated (and not challenged) as foreign sourced?


Seems too much no no.

so you pay to la france right now?

Well, the more or less battle tested thing here since 3+ years and counting has been Dubai. There are many like you there.

 

[jafo]

Yes french. So Monaco is really not an option, and anyway not "enough" wealthy from my opinion for Monaco (even without FR citizenship).

Hmmm.... I went to Monaco in the late '90s with far less than 10M and have been there ever since. Of course, my net worth has increased orders of magnitude greater than my original "entrance" amount. I also have a "French" passport (among others), but due to my enate grandfather. I was NOT born, reared, studied, worked, or ever lived in France, though—big difference.

But you are 100% correct in your personal assessment: Monaco is NOT for you due to your FR citizenship (especially if it is the ONLY one you have).

Your particular case is outside my circle of competence, and I'm afraid I will be of no help. I wish you good luck in your search, though.

PS. Accumulating this amount in France is NOT an easy task, so obviously, you are an extremely competent and intelligent individual.

 

[toums]

so you pay to la france right now?

Well, the more or less battle tested thing here since 3+ years and counting has been Dubai. There are many like you there.

No no, currently Portuguese resident with NHR tax scheme, as I explained in my first post.

For UAE, it is an option, but as I detailed too, it would be not my first choice to live at least 90days a year there..

PS. Accumulating this amount in France is NOT an easy task, so obviously, you are an extremely competent and intelligent individual.

I didn't accumulate anything from France, as I am living abroad since more than 10years, and started from this point

 

[jafo]

2) Monaco - is no fun if youthful, after a period.

I'd like to clarify this... I went to Monaco in my late 20s. Obviously, we all know I travel a lot. I am traveling right now. Mentioning to hot girls (casually), I mean the crème de la crème, so girls ranking 12 on a scale of 1 to 10, that I live in Monaco, was a guaranteed "you-all-know what"!
Those who have tried this know...

I didn't accumulate anything from France, as I am living abroad since more than 10years, and started from this point

Congratulations! Amazing!

so you pay to la france right now?

Well, the more or less battle tested thing here since 3+ years and counting has been Dubai. There are many like you there.

He's in Portugal under the NHR program.
He wants to trade up! Very smart of him.

He may have to take this off the public forum and into the Mentor Group so somebody can (maybe) give him ideas he can test himself and evaluate to see if they are a good fit.

I don't f*ck with France, Spain, the US, the Netherlands, etc. Most of these places, except the US, are paper tigers and cause so many taxable events that I avoid them like the plague.

 

[JackAlabama]

I'd like to clarify this... I went to Monaco in my late 20s. Obviously, we all know I travel a lot. I am traveling right now. Mentioning to hot girls (casually), I mean the crème de la crème, so girls ranking 12 on a scale of 1 to 10, that I live in Monaco, was a guaranteed "you-all-know what"!
Those who have tried this know...


Congratulations! Amazing!


He's in Portugal under the NHR program.
He wants to trade up! Very smart of him.

He may have to take this off the public forum and into the Mentor Group so somebody can (maybe) give him ideas he can test himself and evaluate to see if they are a good fit.

I don't f*ck with France, Spain, the US, the Netherlands, etc. Most of these places, except the US, are paper tigers and cause so many taxable events that I avoid them like the plague.

yes got it now. Still bet on Dubai 90days over the winter is pretty chill, but tax cert is anyhow not needed.

 

[toums]

yes got it now. Still bet on Dubai 90days over the winter is pretty chill, but tax cert is anyhow not needed.

I went many times in Dubai, ofc it's not bad too spend time there, but in my case, if i spend already 5/6 months in Europe a year with 2 bases there (including at 3th place in my citizenship country during this time for a month) and in winter like in BKK/ SEA countries, it's literally too much (and no time) to include 90days in UAE..

That's why I can consider Dubai, if you can really set up as a tax residency, without spending many times there a year and without being challenged by any other country (according to my case and plans).

 

[wellington]

What does this stand for?

Unexplained Wealth Order (UWO rather).

I'd like to clarify this... I went to Monaco in my late 20s. Obviously, we all know I travel a lot. I am traveling right now. Mentioning to hot girls (casually), I mean the crème de la crème, so girls ranking 12 on a scale of 1 to 10, that I live in Monaco, was a guaranteed "you-all-know what"!
Those who have tried this know...

Perhaps just me, but had hot gf's, wives, fiance etc.

That doesn't really interest me at my age (approaching 40's) - wife/kids.

Monaco is dull because it's so small, same issue Singapore has, you say you can go anywhere, this is true, but you can also live anywhere when you have wealth... and worrying about tax isn't really a driver to live in Monaco in my opinion, for example, 6 months in Dubai, cash the crypto out and move to almost any nation and it's tax free money into the country.

Why live in Monaco - except if you will still be actively investing the funds etc for future tax breaks on the potential gains and even then there's much better places to live without having to zone yourself to such a small footprint, or better structures to work within.

 

[jafo]

That doesn't really interest me at my age (approaching 40's)

Older, and the same sentiment as you now.
No wife. Thank God

*BUT* we can't deny that in our 20s, free testosterone and total testosterone levels controlled our vmPFC

 

[wellington]

Older, and the same sentiment as you now.
No wife. Thank God

*BUT* we can't deny that in our 20s, free testosterone and total testosterone levels controlled our vmPFC

From around 16 I had a goal (t) to impregnate every and all tails

Processed food killed that I guess

 

[hlepic211]

Establish a base in Gibraltar as a CAT2 resident and move/live around EU with your EU passport. Your freedom ticket will cost around 70k p/a (cat2 lump sum tax+apartment rental) and you'll get access to crypto-friendly banking at a reasonable cost for your net worth.

 

[toums]

Establish a base in Gibraltar as a CAT2 resident and move/live around EU with your EU passport. Your freedom ticket will cost around 70k p/a (cat2 lump sum tax+apartment rental) and you'll get access to crypto-friendly banking at a reasonable cost for your net worth.

I currently don't need a crypto-friendly banking, I already have 2 banks in 2 different juridictions (outside Portugal) where I am able to cash-out without any problem since the 2017 bullrun..