Russian President Putin announces military operation in Ukraine

[Golden Fleece]

Sorry but you are simple dumb when claiming bandera mass killed polish civilians to fight soviet union which were also an enemy of poland at that time.

I said no such thing. In fact, I said the exact opposite. I even went out of my way to discuss the "slaughter of innocents" as a separate matter. Now you are just lying.

 

[369]

Like i said you have no clue about history

The peak of the massacres took place in July and August 1943. Most of the victims were women and children.[5] Many of the Polish victims regardless of age or gender were tortured before being killed; some of the methods included rape, dismemberment or immolation, among others.[6] The UPA's actions resulted in between 50,000[1] and 100,000 deaths.[7][8]

According to Timothy Snyder, the ethnic cleansing was a Ukrainian attempt to prevent the post-war Polish state from asserting its sovereignty over Ukrainian-majority areas that had been part of the prewar Polish state.[9] Henryk Komański and Szczepan Siekierka write that the killings were directly linked to the policies of Stepan Bandera's faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists

 

[Golden Fleece]

Like i said you have no clue about history

Like I have said twice already, Bandera was locked in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were actually killed. Nothing that you cited says otherwise. And even if he did what you say he did, it still does not prove that he was a Nazi.

So, this is now the third time that I have cited that actual fact, which is now a part of history. The Germans always kept great records, so that point is not in dispute.

That is an actual fact. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own invented facts.

 

[369]

Like I have said twice already, Bandera was locked in a German concentration camp when the concrete decision to massacre the Poles was made and when the Poles were actually killed. Nothing that you cited says otherwise. And even if he did what you say he did, it still does not prove that he was a Nazi.

So, this is now the third time that I have cited that actual fact, which is now a part of history. The Germans always kept great records, so that point is not in dispute.

That is an actual fact. You are entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your own invented facts.

Would you have studied history you would have known it was proofen he was the key decission maker for that massacre for which he has been internationaly held accountable.
You really should learn history instead posting your opinion about history since you are writing a completly new history out of your imaginary

 

[Golden Fleece]

Would you have studied history you would have known it was proofen he was the key decission maker for that massacre for which he has been internationaly held accountable.
You really should learn history instead posting your opinion about history since you are writing a completly new history out of your imaginary

Then post your evidence, just like I did. That way, people can weigh all the evidence. Very simple. Instead, you make baseless claims without offering any proof.

But my real point is that the vast majority of people working with the Germans against the Soviet occupation were simply nationalist patriots, not Nazis. They worked with the Germans to keep their nations free of the invading Soviet monsters. And that point is still true regardless of what Bandera did.

Even if Bandera did everything that you say he did, it makes him a mass murderer -- but not a Nazi.

 

[John Spectre]

Then post your evidence, just like I did. That way, people can weigh all the evidence. Very simple. Instead, you make baseless claims without offering any proof.

But my real point is that the vast majority of people working with the Germans against the Soviet occupation were simply nationalist patriots, not Nazis. They worked with the Germans to keep their nations free of the invading Soviet monsters. And that point is still true regardless of what Bandera did.

Even if Bandera did everything that you say he did, it makes him a mass murderer -- but not a Nazi.

You need to understand that every pro-russian fellows here from bahamas to russia do not distinguish nazi, nationalits, patriots about Ukraine. Everyone are nazi in eyes of those 'smart' debaters and you can't change anything.
It's a simplier for them and create bigger fear about 'nazi problem'.

That allow to jusity war/civil henocide or even call a Nazi HALF MILLION russian-speaking civil people stucked in Mariupol.

 

[troubled soul]

‘Impossible to proceed’: Red Cross halts Mariupol evacuation

ICRC says it was forced to turn a ‘safe passage convoy’ for civilians around as fighting intensifies in Mariupol.

www.aljazeera.com

‘Impossible to proceed’: Red Cross halts Mariupol evacuation

ICRC says it was forced to turn a ‘safe passage convoy’ around after failing to reach trapped civilians as fighting intensifies in the southern city.

 

[JohnLocke]

It is rare that we have had so many debaters active in a thread like this. I thought that everyone should be allowed to express their opinion in a fair and pleasant way. There is no reason to insult, attack, or otherwise annoy each other.

@Martin Everson does a terrific job here, he is actually trying to mediate between the debaters who take this discussion a bit too seriously and who leak a little too many emotions in their personal attitudes. I see no reason to delete some posts unless a clear explanation can be given as to why one or the other thread should be removed.

5 posts from the same user have been reported right now! I believe all MODs can see them, if it is not my fault and not theirs I apologize and work on the case.

The threads that have been reported will be discussed internally, which means that it may take some time to make a decision and possibly remove a given item. Just because you press the REPORT button does not mean that we remove anything within minutes, and therefore there is no reason at all to be rude, offended or otherwise harass a MOD - it in itself triggers a warning point. Do you not care, because you're just on a vicious public forum, so how about staying out of the discussion or completely away? - if you want to discuss this topic, it is not in this thread, make a new one and I am ready for us to have a fresh discussion about OffshoreCorpTalk's attitudes and rules.

 

[polonieth]

You need to understand that every pro-russian fellows here from bahamas to russia do not distinguish nazi, nationalits, patriots about Ukraine. Everyone are nazi in eyes of those 'smart' debaters and you can't change anything.
It's a simplier for them and create bigger fear about 'nazi problem'.

That allow to jusity war/civil henocide or even call a Nazi HALF MILLION russian-speaking civil people stucked in Mariupol.

You are too emotionally attached to the topic that you cannot see the wood for the trees. You get civilians being shrink wrapped to lamp posts and various other humanitarian crimes and you lot are like "Ah Putin killed a journalist 3 years ago, don't forget!"

I have zero emotionality to it, I have no ties to Ukraine or Russia other than working with several freelancers in both countries and I get on fine with both nations when I've visited, they are all, in the main, decent people.

However, I am looking at what is happening on the ground and the stuff I am seeing from the Ukrainian side i.e. the Zelinksky regime, SBU and those far-right battalions/mercenaries is horrifying so that's what I post on. There is zero chance I can support that.

Sadly some Ukrainian civilians and people in this thread are so hypnotised by propaganda and the narrative that they either support these actions, try to defend them, or simply ignore them. It's the same reason we saw people driving in their cars, alone, no passengers, wearing a mask to protect themselves. Look up Desmet's thesis and it's happening again here, well described also by Hannah Arendt. We see it repeating here, how could so many usually decent people go along with such atrocities? Mass formation.

Are there going to be Russian units committing crimes? Absolutely, it happens in all wars. But from a birds-eye view, this has been a careful operation done to try and minimise civilians casualties. Let's face it, Russia could blow Ukraine to pieces, as the USA did with Iraq, Libya etc. Instead, they've taken a much different approach.

 

[John Spectre]

Are there going to be Russian units committing crimes? Absolutely, it happens in all wars.

It's a good that after more than month of war you finally agreed on committing russia's civil crimes.
I just wanted to remember, that some time ago you said: "Every bit of info regarding bombing civilians gets debunked within 24 hours"

 

[JamesDonkey]

Can we finally admit the US' and some of the western EU countries civilian crimes in Irak, for instance? And how about the crimes against civilians in other countries in the Middle East too?

 

[Golden Fleece]

Can we finally admit the US' and some of the western EU countries civilian crimes in Irak, for instance? And how about the crimes against civilians in other countries in the Middle East too?

There is a huge difference between war crimes committed by individual soldiers or units without any authorization from their command structure -- versus a command structure that orders its soldiers to commit war crimes or that does nothing to stop them once it has knowledge of ongoing war crimes.

That is the difference between rogue regimes and Western nations. This is nothing new. The same thing happened in WWII with many Soviet war crimes, atrocities, mass murders, and mass raping.

 

[JamesDonkey]

There is a huge difference between war crimes committed by individual soldiers or units without any authorization from their command structure -- versus a command structure that orders its soldiers to commit war crimes or that does nothing to stop them once it has knowledge of ongoing war crimes.

That is the difference between rogue regimes and Western nations. This is nothing new. The same thing happened in WWII with many Soviet war crimes, atrocities, mass murders, and mass raping.

So the US and some EU countries did autrocities to the Middle Eastern people, BUT they were doing that with good intentions and nice TV/news propaganda? That's why that's nothing bad? That makes sense.

There're people in both cases in Ukraine and Middle East.
No difference.

Therefore, before judging other countries, why don't you try to apply the same judgents to your own country first?

 

[Golden Fleece]

So the US and some EU countries did autrocities to the Middle Eastern people, BUT they were doing that with good intentions and nice TV/news propaganda? That's why that's nothing bad? That makes sense.

There're people in both cases in Ukraine and Middle East.
No difference.

Therefore, before judging other countries, why don't you try to apply the same judgents to your own country first?

Why don't you re-read what I actually stated. It is very clear.

It is the difference between a rogue police officer who rousts black men (and gets disciplined or fired if he gets caught) -- and institutionalized racism throughout an entire police force whose racism operates with the knowledge and consent of the police chief and all his subordinates.

So, if you can understand that simple analogy, now re-read what I stated earlier:

There is a huge difference between war crimes committed by individual soldiers or units without any authorization from their command structure -- versus a command structure that orders its soldiers to commit war crimes or that does nothing to stop them once it has knowledge of ongoing war crimes.

This is a very simple concept. Quite elemental. I don't see why you cannot understand the clear contrast between these two positions. Perhaps you come from a culture where all elements of society are so thoroughly corrupt that you can see no distinction, because everyone in government is so dishonest and unprincipled. If so, that is very sad. It is the difference between institutionalized savagery and civilization.

 

[JamesDonkey]

No matter what you'll post here, the fact that US and western EU bombed Middle Eastern countries will remain.

 

[Golden Fleece]

No matter what you'll post here, the fact that US and western EU bombed Middle Eastern countries will remain.

Mere arguments do not constitute fact. According to international law, bombing is not a war crime unless military forces purposely target civilians for no reason. Try educating yourself.

Article 6(b) of the Charter thus condemned the "wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity" and classified it as a violation of the laws or customs of war, therefore, making it a war crime.

Aerial bombardment and international law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Russia has purposely targeted residential neighborhoods in Ukraine with no military or strategic value.

 

[Dreamy]

polonieth​

What are you talking about? Russia attacked an independent country, hiding behind what is unclear. What can be justification for Russia? Watch their TV shows, watch their bloggers, talk to their people - they would really love to conquer EVERYTHING up to Portugal at least. They must be stopped. Yes, I am also not a fan of Biden, the United States, their democracy and other things. BUT in this situation, I would be glad if the USA would simply destroy this peace-hating Russian regime with this Kremlin

And now, like many other Ukrainians, I cannot return to my home, as the f*cking Russian soldier is trampling my land with his smelly boot

 

[kkein]

polonieth​

What are you talking about? Russia attacked an independent country, hiding behind what is unclear. What can be justification for Russia? Watch their TV shows, watch their bloggers, talk to their people - they would really love to conquer EVERYTHING up to Portugal at least. They must be stopped. Yes, I am also not a fan of Biden, the United States, their democracy and other things. BUT in this situation, I would be glad if the USA would simply destroy this peace-hating Russian regime with this Kremlin

And now, like many other Ukrainians, I cannot return to my home, as the f*cking Russian soldier is trampling my land with his smelly boot

 

[KDX]

He's employed by RT, so there's no way he's gonna say anything negative about Russia. Just saying.

 

[JamesDonkey]

Proof, more of proof, more of proof....

No matter what you'll post here, the fact that US and western EU bombed Middle Eastern countries will remain.