Trader deciding between Spain and Portugal

[MrTambourineBTC]

My situation:

Lived in Spain for my whole life, never paid taxes.

Former professional poker player, now trading crypto.

Last 5 years did not do a ton of shady stuff that there is track record of really. 2022 cashed out 15-20k for expenses mostly, through crypto.com. 2021 similar. 2020 even less, through now extinct bitwala/nuri. 2019 about 20-30k through bitwala. 2018 almost nothing. So not a lot of stuff in the last 5 years that I could potentially pay a big fine. But being almost 40 and having never made tax return might be suspicious if I do it all of a sudden and declare 100k+ winnings.


I'm done with living in the shadows. Want to (mostly) normalize my situation. This is no long term plan. It will get more difficult in the future too.

I only consider 2 options: living in Spain or Portugal. I'm open to hearing advice but not about other countries.


1-Spain: home country, have a house to my name. Taxes on stocks (which would be the same as crypto) is between 19-23 mostly,I dont plan on making much more than 100k this year, so 21% seems fine to me.
Bad part: declaring taxes would "put me on the radar", and I don't want an investigation by Spanish tax office about my previous years and would simply leave.

2-Portugal, close,relatively good weather. Would say goodbye to Spanish Hacienda so no chance to be "on the radar" for these last 5 years. Just begone.
Badpart: Crypto is taxed at 28% if I'm correct and if trading is your professionl it might even be taxed as income tax! Which might put it go close to 40-50% even? Not sure about that. Does anyone know how much you pay for trading crypto in portugal?


Planning on making 100kish in 2023, perhaps more.

Any advice will be welcome! On particular ways to live in Spain or Portugal but pay less. Or on how much should I worry about Spanish tax office regarding my previous 5 years...

Thank you offshorecorptalkers-

I'm just basically sick of always worrying about being under the radar. Got caught in FTX due to fake name cause i didnt want to give my real name, so couldnt verify account and withdraw more than 2k per day so got trapped. m tired of always living like this and want to normalize my situation. 20% is high but i guess okay for peace of mind.

 

[Mssquirrel]

Portugal not even think too much about it. 100 k usd a year in Spain is like 40% income tax. Hacienda has 4 or 5 years to investigate you and try to make you pay taxes so I wouldn't risk it especially if you have a property there.

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

Portugal not even think too much about it. 100 k usd a year in Spain is like 40% income tax. Hacienda has 4 or 5 years to investigate you and try to make you pay taxes so I wouldn't risk it especially if you have a property there.

If you trade crypto i'm almost 100% sure in Spain you get taxed as incremenents of wealth. It doesn't go with income tax. It's mostly flat at 21ish%

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

Hi guys, planning to move to Spain. I derived my income from Dubai. Is this something under the radar of the Hacienda?

Well how about not hijacking and distorting another totally unrelated thread and creating your own how crazy would that be

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

Portugal not even think too much about it. 100 k usd a year in Spain is like 40% income tax. Hacienda has 4 or 5 years to investigate you and try to make you pay taxes so I wouldn't risk it especially if you have a property there.

yeah confirmed on capital gains

0-6k 19%
6-50k 21%
50-200k 23%
200+ 28%

so mostly about 21-23 expected to pay

 

[CyprusLawyer101]

Move out of Spain to Portugal for a couple of years and then re enter Spain as a new comer in the country and make all registrations saying you were living abroad before and now coming to Spain and ready to act prudently with tax obligations.

 

[Mssquirrel]

yeah confirmed on capital gains

0-6k 19%
6-50k 21%
50-200k 23%
200+ 28%

so mostly about 21-23 expected to pay

If you are 100% sure it doesn't sound that bad tbh.

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

If you are 100% sure it doesn't sound that bad tbh.

yeah i dont mind, and even if i made 200k it doesnt sound THAT awful, the problem is if, at the moment of declaring taxes for the first time in my life (esp as a crypto trader), in 2024, some red flag somehow shows up and i get full attention...an audit, previous years, etc.

Portugal with NHR might be 20% too (otherwise it's 28%+ i think), and you're really gone from Spain just get out and no flying over the radar whatsoever. You might the following year even be officially living in Portugal while residing in Spain.

Tricky situation for sure that's why asked for help...

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

@MrTambourineBTC

Imo your options are

- To start clean in Spain. Forget about what you did before, send a few ks to a newly created created Binance/whatever acc and start declaring from there.

- Move to Cyprus for 2 years aprox and then go back to Spain, then start declaring.
Theres no capital gains in the sell of securities in CY and crypto is included for now.

- The PT option is nice too but id also start small so if questions arise you can show a clean start.

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

That screenshot is what I found on crypto in Cyprus. Kind of similar to Portugal where if trading is your main activity/source of income you can't pay 0%. Either way not really contemplating moving to that island

I think your advice is sound. That was exactly my plan, can get a donation of 10-20k with clean money, then start from there, either in Spain or Portugal.

 

[TheCryptoAnt]

[...]

another option is to move to Dubai for a few years

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

another option is to move to Dubai for a few years

not particular fan of dubai! Also expensive af

perhaps in a few years if i can make 6-7 fig/year consistently...

 

[Alonzo]

yeah confirmed on capital gains

0-6k 19%
6-50k 21%
50-200k 23%
200+ 28%

so mostly about 21-23 expected to pay

If trading crypto is your main source of income then I doubt you will pay CGT instead of ordinary rates

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

If trading crypto is your main source of income then I doubt you will pay CGT instead of ordinary rates

well... you're wrong.

 

[buliwyfa]

My 2 cents view:

In favor of Portugal:
- Portugal is roughly 40% cheaper to live in than Spain
- Madrid - Lisbon is 4 hours drive w/o bordes
- NHR program gives you:
- - has 20% income tax for 10 years and 0% weath, real star, etc
- - If trading crypto and "holding" them for a year Portugal has 0% tax rate.
- - NHR is available to all citizens of a EU member country (no need of golden visa, which is needed for non-EU citizens) Search all details online.


In favor of Spain:
- One of the biggest tourist destination in the world (3rd or 2nd most visited country for tourist )
- Beckham Law gives:
- - flat reduced income tax rate of 24% up to €600,000 for 5-6 years.
- - Wealth tax lowered to 0.2% from 2.5%.
- - Not for people currently living in Spain

I would rather go to Portugal, not only because taxes are lower but because laws change less often and Portuguese IRS is not as aggressive as Spanish IRS is (Hacienda is the worst IRS in the world along with US IRS).

But individual situation and preferences must be evaluates with a professional advisor to see what suits you better

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

Woahhhhh

I was gonna open a small long BTC $24.4k and turns out in Bybit you cant operate derivatives/futures from Spain from 15th February.

Same goes for Binance since last summer (had avoided it as it's the most regulated exchange).

Woahhhhhhh


This changes a lot...

I can not not operate in futures, I cannot be a trader without futures.... there's no way, esp like I said starting with a small 10-20k account, I would take years in making serious money.

I guess I gotta leave Spain.... they leave me no other option...

 

[buliwyfa]

well... you're wrong.

You are correct but, you can declare you main source of income as "whatever" (web designer, programer, your profession online consulting, etc) lower "this freelance" income to the minimum taxable (or lower) pay you 20% taxes on that income and get the crypos at 0%

And there are other ways, please search NHR program benefits, specially taxes on foreign income sources and DDT

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

This really makes me sad... Politicians truly suck...

 

[buliwyfa]

I guess I gotta leave Spain.... they leave me no other option...

¡Que le den a Hacienda! (Fu*** IRS)

Also you are ONLY living Spain for 183 days... or less (be really careful on this)

 

[MrTambourineBTC]

I'm kind of in shock right now... we truly live in a taxhell with a communist government enemy of individual sovereignty and freedom

You are correct but, you can declare you main source of income as "whatever" (web designer, programer, your profession online consulting, etc) lower "this freelance" income to the minimum taxable (or lower) pay you 20% taxes on that income and get the crypos at 0%

And there are other ways, please search NHR program benefits, specially taxes on foreign income sources and DDT

Yes 20% is already good for me if I could get the NHR, I'm gonna contact some lawyers, I think fiscal year in Portugal goes from Jan to Dec so no rush.