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Cashing out crypto and then?

No need to sell bitcoin in a world where everything can be printed/minted/mass created it’s the one asset that can not.
Are you going to hold all your BTC through the next 4 year bear market then, if history repeats?
What about buy low, sell high?

this would only make sense if it's a loan without margin call and the risk of the lender (or opposite opinion) is priced in the interest rate - otherwise you would get liquidated and screwed (in the scenario of BTC price going down which you're expecting)

btw I totally get what you're up to but selling BTC is a silly idea and I honestly interested in the ways of extracting value without selling
There are some ways to extract a low yield (Grow, Nexo, etc.) of 3-9% with BTC, but as we all know - not your wallet, not your coins.

You're still missing the point I brought.
BTC goes to 100k, you borrow 90k; it drops to 80k, you secure 90k and that's it. If BTC shoots the next day to 150, 200K, you're on sidelines. Your strategy just assumes there are no major swings in the market.
My strategy assumes mainly that I can't time the market.
You prefer selling outright? How do you decide when?
 
Are you going to hold all your BTC through the next 4 year bear market then, if history repeats?
Why not? Its not really 4y either, maybe 1y/2y of suffering at most. But with sufficient size does it matter if your portfolio is down 50% or so?
After all cannot eat steak more than 3x a day and lifestyle impact is low.
This is different when you lets say have a portfolio like 100k and it goes down to 50k.
There is this famous chart from the 1920s which outlines the path to hyperinflation quite well.
What about buy low, sell high?
Can you do this? Is it as simple as it sounds?
After all every granny and joe knows you buy low and sell high and yet like 90% of traders under perform the market.
Just from what you posted here, Id not try to time markets. Hold thru and advance fund x years of lifestyle at 52week tops.
There are some ways to extract a low yield (Grow, Nexo, etc.) of 3-9% with BTC, but as we all know - not your wallet, not your coins.
that yield is very low for the risk. Plus with such a cagr you dont need extra yield.
 
Ideally - yes. But in the end it comes to whoever has the bigger war chest - the "crypto punk" idea is quickly losing the "punk" and getting sucked into the old good kyc/aml world.
actually not at all really. You know how shitty it was to exchange in 2013? Today is a walk in the park in many countries compared to 10 y ago.
Maybe not in the socialist ones, but these have other issues too.
 
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Yet they can harass/sue core developers to stop development and big pools to manipulate and censor
True! *BUT* core developers should adopt Satoshi's "religion" of being anonymous and invisible!

Ponder on this...

Do we REALLY know the names and contacts of those who are the dastardly self-appointed "leaders" pulling the strings in this world? :rolleyes:
Why do "they" insist on staying under the radar and doxx-proof? :rolleyes:
Why do "they" stay completely OFF social media and NEVER announce their appearance in public? :rolleyes:

There is a reason and the reason is NOT for "our benefit".... it's SELF-PRESERVATION!

PS. Uncommon "Insider's knowledge": In the US, top intel guys are preferred if they are Mormons. Much less of a chance to "blackmail" them. ;)

Why not? Its not really 4y either, maybe 1y/2y of suffering at most. But with sufficient size does it matter if your portfolio is down 50% or so?
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

Badass thinking! I'm paraphrasing, but Warren Buffett once said, if you can't deal with a 50% drop, don't get involved ;)

After all cannot eat steak more than 3x a day and lifestyle impact is low.
#MASTER life wisdom right here! ;)

 
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If you are so sure that bitcoin will rise, just buy a s**t tons of long term put....

I am in Mexico now and the real estate market is growing like crazy in some parts of the country such as the riviera Maya, Oaxaca coast (Huatulco, Puerto Escondido) and also Baja California, some places are developing now since a new train and aeroport has been built in the q. Roo / Yucatan region, I am confident that the market will go up in the next 10 years, I have seen some developers offering 12% insured ROI for 2-3 years
 
Why not? Its not really 4y either, maybe 1y/2y of suffering at most. But with sufficient size does it matter if your portfolio is down 50% or so?
After all cannot eat steak more than 3x a day and lifestyle impact is low.
This is different when you lets say have a portfolio like 100k and it goes down to 50k.
There is this famous chart from the 1920s which outlines the path to hyperinflation quite well.

Can you do this? Is it as simple as it sounds?
After all every granny and joe knows you buy low and sell high and yet like 90% of traders under perform the market.
Just from what you posted here, Id not try to time markets. Hold thru and advance fund x years of lifestyle at 52week tops.

that yield is very low for the risk. Plus with such a cagr you dont need extra yield.
I am a bit hesitant to hold through the next bear for many reasons,

- opportunity cost during the bear market
- incoming CBDCs, which may be good or bad for bitcoin (I think short term bad, long term good)
- current lack of quantum resistance, which might become an issue in 5-8 years
- continues attack by governments, which may affect the miners
(we all know btc isn't destroying the environment, and covid didn't let people drop dead on the street, but their propaganda and measures have more power than the intelligence of the plebs that elect them) ‘Bitcoin Vs. The Dollar’—Biden Administration Suddenly Declares U.S. Crypto ‘Emergency’ After Huge Price Surge
- I know that no one can time the market, but the btc cycles are a fact so far, and taking advantage of it isn't a bad move.

I completely agree that the yield offered by some exchanges isn't enough to take the risk of losing it or KYC.
I sleep well knowing that no one knows what I have and where I have it (is a huge plus during a divorce).
 

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I am a bit hesitant to hold through the next bear for many reasons,

- opportunity cost during the bear market
its no biggie really if you hold a 2y cash.
- incoming CBDCs, which may be good or bad for bitcoin (I think short term bad, long term good)
nah, bitcoin is what you wanna hold then more than other things.
- current lack of quantum resistance, which might become an issue in 5-8 years
no issue and thats not really a case for concern either if have single use addresses which you will have these days until you run your own things which i think you dont.
- continues attack by governments, which may affect the miners
no biggie either. If china could not stop it, no one can, especially not the usa which is divided.
(we all know btc isn't destroying the environment, and covid didn't let people drop dead on the street, but their propaganda and measures have more power than the intelligence of the plebs that elect them) ‘Bitcoin Vs. The Dollar’—Biden Administration Suddenly Declares U.S. Crypto ‘Emergency’ After Huge Price Surge
- I know that no one can time the market, but the btc cycles are a fact so far, and taking advantage of it isn't a bad move.
look at the hyperinflation chart from 1920s. in hindsight they are a fact, but that's no guarantee you will hit it. good luck ;)
I completely agree that the yield offered by some exchanges isn't enough to take the risk of losing it or KYC.
I sleep well knowing that no one knows what I have and where I have it (is a huge plus during a divorce).
 
I'm in a similar boat @cryptofriendly
I've missed to sell in all the cycles so far, in the long term that played put nicely, but there is some opportunity cost for sure.
I have decided to never sell mostly appreciating asset like btc and eth but I do borrow against it.
However I"m not doing the 90% you suggest as a way to sell 10% off the top, but at healthy collaterial levels, so ideally i don't get liquidated.

I use the funds which are not taxable (great additional benefit) to fund businesses and as of recently some RE in Dubai as I like the city and don't mind spending more time there. Yes the RE market there is crazy right now and have signs of mania, but analyses are mostly favoring continued but slower increase and also everyone there offers payment plans ( 60% during construction, 40% on handover is the most common) so you can use that additional leverage without dealing with banks.
A lot of people put 20% downpayment for a property, and as soon as the overall price of the property rises with 20% they sell, making 100% on the money they put in. I'm more of a long term guy since my portfolio is risky enough as it is, but just giving an example.
What attracted me about this market is the relatively high passive income from renting (long term 6-9%, short term 9-15%, depending on ton of factors)

so here is something that certain people mind find cute
1. stake ether, currently passive yield of 3.5%
2. BUT you can borrow against it at 3-5%, considering you will borrow maximum 30% of the collaterial value, you are basically at negative interest. So you are getting paid to borrow
3. Use those money to buy RE with short term rent income of 10%+
result, you keep the appreciating asset and have double passive yield on it WITHOUT generating a taxable event by outright selling.

example:
1. You have $3M of staked eth at 3.7% yield (current rate at lido) generating +$111000 per year
2. you borrow $1M DAI against that eth at makerdao at 7.16% (damn they have increased it, used to be 5.25% until recently) costing you -$71600 per year
so you are ahead $39400 from this borrowing exercise while keeping the appreciating asset and not creating taxable event AND having a healthy collaterial ratio
3. You then by RE for that $1M that makes you 10% net (possible right now in Dubai with short term rent, that % is after the management company fee, so it's passive net 10%) giving you $100k per year

result $139k really passive income per year for every $3M worth of ETH you have or 4.63% while keeping the upside potential and not owing any taxes unless you want to self report you property in Dubai to your home government and pay the income tax on the $100k

Not great, but not terrible either and not long ago the stETH yield was 7%+ and borrowing against it at 2% so was even better.
Also somewhat balancing your risky crypto portfolio with some real estate

open to suggestions for improvement :)
 
I'm in a similar boat @cryptofriendly
I've missed to sell in all the cycles so far, in the long term that played put nicely, but there is some opportunity cost for sure.
I have decided to never sell mostly appreciating asset like btc and eth but I do borrow against it.
However I"m not doing the 90% you suggest as a way to sell 10% off the top, but at healthy collaterial levels, so ideally i don't get liquidated.

I use the funds which are not taxable (great additional benefit) to fund businesses and as of recently some RE in Dubai as I like the city and don't mind spending more time there. Yes the RE market there is crazy right now and have signs of mania, but analyses are mostly favoring continued but slower increase and also everyone there offers payment plans ( 60% during construction, 40% on handover is the most common) so you can use that additional leverage without dealing with banks.
A lot of people put 20% downpayment for a property, and as soon as the overall price of the property rises with 20% they sell, making 100% on the money they put in. I'm more of a long term guy since my portfolio is risky enough as it is, but just giving an example.
What attracted me about this market is the relatively high passive income from renting (long term 6-9%, short term 9-15%, depending on ton of factors)

so here is something that certain people mind find cute
1. stake ether, currently passive yield of 3.5%
2. BUT you can borrow against it at 3-5%, considering you will borrow maximum 30% of the collaterial value, you are basically at negative interest. So you are getting paid to borrow
3. Use those money to buy RE with short term rent income of 10%+
result, you keep the appreciating asset and have double passive yield on it WITHOUT generating a taxable event by outright selling.

example:
1. You have $3M of staked eth at 3.7% yield (current rate at lido) generating +$111000 per year
2. you borrow $1M DAI against that eth at makerdao at 7.16% (damn they have increased it, used to be 5.25% until recently) costing you -$71600 per year
so you are ahead $39400 from this borrowing exercise while keeping the appreciating asset and not creating taxable event AND having a healthy collaterial ratio
3. You then by RE for that $1M that makes you 10% net (possible right now in Dubai with short term rent, that % is after the management company fee, so it's passive net 10%) giving you $100k per year

result $139k really passive income per year for every $3M worth of ETH you have or 4.63% while keeping the upside potential and not owing any taxes unless you want to self report you property in Dubai to your home government and pay the income tax on the $100k

Not great, but not terrible either and not long ago the stETH yield was 7%+ and borrowing against it at 2% so was even better.
Also somewhat balancing your risky crypto portfolio with some real estate

open to suggestions for improvement :)
That is a very nice and interesting strategy, thank you.
I have to look into it, I got some stETH as well, and my only plan was liquidating it at 8K-12K and increasing the amount through the Lido yield until then.

But your strategy is a really nice way to diversify into RE without giving up the upside of crypto.

You gave me the idea about using the same for RE or fixed term deposits in the short time, until I find a good and resonable priced property, and with 6.5% APY on 6 month deposit or 9% on a 12 months USD deposit (I can ask for monthly interest payments, then it drops to 8.5%) where I currently live (-4% tax on that interest, which isn't a big issue, and safe enough with a big Korean bank in SEA).

The only issue is the borrow rate and the risk of makerdao/spark platform rugpulling or getting compromised through hacks or governments. I gonna have to work through some excel sheets to see if its worth the risk for me. But yeah, thanks a lot for the inspiration!
 
@cryptofote
Interesting, I was also planning to sell eth at about $10k but only about 10%. Use it to repay my debt so far and have some dry powder for drops or upcoming projects

9% on cash deposit is crazy high right now. Is that in Korea? I know most of Europe is around 0% and a bank in Dubai offered me 5% couple of weeks ago.

Yes the borrow rate of makerdao fluctoates quite a bit. It was actually close to 0% (or 2% don't remember) when I started and just when writing this post yesterday found that they have raised it to 7%+ now. Before that was 5.25% for a long time.
As for hack risk, they've been around since 2017 so smart contracts are as battle tested as they come at least in DeFi terms, but indeed it adds a small risk.

seems we both can't DM, but would be nice to keep in touch somehow and brainstorm further.
 
@cryptofote
Interesting, I was also planning to sell eth at about $10k but only about 10%. Use it to repay my debt so far and have some dry powder for drops or upcoming projects

9% on cash deposit is crazy high right now. Is that in Korea? I know most of Europe is around 0% and a bank in Dubai offered me 5% couple of weeks ago.

Yes the borrow rate of makerdao fluctoates quite a bit. It was actually close to 0% (or 2% don't remember) when I started and just when writing this post yesterday found that they have raised it to 7%+ now. Before that was 5.25% for a long time.
As for hack risk, they've been around since 2017 so smart contracts are as battle tested as they come at least in DeFi terms, but indeed it adds a small risk.

seems we both can't DM, but would be nice to keep in touch somehow and brainstorm further.
Wio (UAE) offers 5.5% on AED if you lock it in for 6 months.

Or you can get 7.75% on REIL in Cambodia. After paying withholding tax, the effective rate is ~6.67%.
 
@cryptofote
Interesting, I was also planning to sell eth at about $10k but only about 10%. Use it to repay my debt so far and have some dry powder for drops or upcoming projects

9% on cash deposit is crazy high right now. Is that in Korea? I know most of Europe is around 0% and a bank in Dubai offered me 5% couple of weeks ago.

Yes the borrow rate of makerdao fluctoates quite a bit. It was actually close to 0% (or 2% don't remember) when I started and just when writing this post yesterday found that they have raised it to 7%+ now. Before that was 5.25% for a long time.
As for hack risk, they've been around since 2017 so smart contracts are as battle tested as they come at least in DeFi terms, but indeed it adds a small risk.

seems we both can't DM, but would be nice to keep in touch somehow and brainstorm further.

You can get 4.9% in USD with IB, or 5.75% with Kraken (no withholding tax) on usd too (works also with usdt / usdc).
 
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Wio (UAE) offers 5.5% on AED if you lock it in for 6 months.

Or you can get 7.75% on REIL in Cambodia. After paying withholding tax, the effective rate is ~6.67%.
You can get more than this on USD in Cambodia, the least you should go for are 9%, you could even still get 11%, but I'd be more selective with banks in Cambodia currently.

Tax for residents is just 4%., so it's still 8.6% on USD after tax.

@cryptofote
Interesting, I was also planning to sell eth at about $10k but only about 10%. Use it to repay my debt so far and have some dry powder for drops or upcoming projects

9% on cash deposit is crazy high right now. Is that in Korea? I know most of Europe is around 0% and a bank in Dubai offered me 5% couple of weeks ago.

Yes the borrow rate of makerdao fluctoates quite a bit. It was actually close to 0% (or 2% don't remember) when I started and just when writing this post yesterday found that they have raised it to 7%+ now. Before that was 5.25% for a long time.
As for hack risk, they've been around since 2017 so smart contracts are as battle tested as they come at least in DeFi terms, but indeed it adds a small risk.

seems we both can't DM, but would be nice to keep in touch somehow and brainstorm further.
It's in South East Asia, not Korea itself, but Korean bank with Cambodian branch. Though account opening requirements got stricter again,
and 6 months business visa extension for $190 is the least that's required now, some want to see a lease contract as well. J-Trust didn't want to open an account without employer letter.
For that, you get a non CRS account, which you can use with Binance P2P, visa card (or union pay, mastercard, whatever you like) for $5 per year, with a great app for the phone as well.
A bit too many banks on the market to be healthy right now, but as long as you check their financials for non-performing loans and select a stable big one, no any problems.

Telegram?

Maybe you wouldn't get 60 millions but enough to buy me a cup of coffee you could do
Mt. Gox Creditors Inch Closer to Repayment as Bitcoin Dump Looms
I start to think that they just wait until all the creditors die and they don't need to pay anything.
Thats the only wait I can understand that multi-year delay.

You can get 4.9% in USD with IB, or 5.75% with Kraken (no withholding tax) on usd too (works also with usdt / usdc).
USDT is worth 12% yield currently on the platform I use for my options
 
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Why not? Its not really 4y either, maybe 1y/2y of suffering at most. But with sufficient size does it matter if your portfolio is down 50% or so?
After all cannot eat steak more than 3x a day and lifestyle impact is low.
This is different when you lets say have a portfolio like 100k and it goes down to 50k.
There is this famous chart from the 1920s which outlines the path to hyperinflation quite well.

Can you do this? Is it as simple as it sounds?
After all every granny and joe knows you buy low and sell high and yet like 90% of traders under perform the market.
Just from what you posted here, Id not try to time markets. Hold thru and advance fund x years of lifestyle at 52week tops.

that yield is very low for the risk. Plus with such a cagr you dont need extra yield.
Doubt we’ll have a similar cycle this time. Supply shock driven by ETFs will probably drive us up and consolidate for a long time rather then a 50% retracement down. Retail drove prior bear cycles. Retail is no longer in charge. Or at least won’t be for much longer.
 
Doubt we’ll have a similar cycle this time. Supply shock driven by ETFs will probably drive us up and consolidate for a long time rather then a 50% retracement down. Retail drove prior bear cycles. Retail is no longer in charge. Or at least won’t be for much longer.
Agree. The "new buyer" who is buying these ETF products is different than retail from the last cycles. BTC will have major retracements in the future nontheless but not 50-80% like in the past.
 
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