Russian President Putin announces military operation in Ukraine

[KDX]

The notion of Putin deliberately destroying Ukranian cities and killing civilians just makes no sense. Why would he do that if his plans are to turn Eastern Ukraine into Russia's controlled territory and gain people's trust?

Do you think Ukrainians trusted him in the beginning? There's nothing that would deteriorate their trust more. So why not cause chaos to try to overwhelm the Ukrainians? That's what I assume his strategy is. However, there are reports by US intelligence that he isn't getting the full picture from his advisors, if this is true then that also plays a role.

 

[369]

Why does he censor himself when he is the only one who knows the truth?

According to him which i can't verify but belive him he is being hunted by nationalists.
He was living in kiev in a hotel where he live streamed which streams have been used by a russian news station without his knowledge showing proof that the claims of ukrains are invalid.
So one time when he came back to the hotel an older lady who worked as receptionists stopped him and told him in russian/ukrainian which he doesn't understand something about banderista and showing him to run.So he instantly left and saw some stuff which basicly confirmed the claim of the lady and at the same night later a call from his hotel neighboor with who he had good relations that there where a bunch of bullies knocking on the door very loud.
So his family left ukraine and since he went to kharkov.
He also showed proof that some other influencers and even a major from an ukrainian city have been catched for showing stuff ukrainian nationalists didn't liked.
Struck has been shot death into his head and througn out of a car in the city center where he was major (neutral/pro to russian) in a city where majority are russians.
So since then he is in kharkov and i don't know for what reasons but he deletes his live streams him walking through the city after a day.Maybe some security messearment i don't understand.

Of course its his site of the story but which is very likly possible when you look what happened to other influencers in ukraine

Do you think Ukrainians trusted him in the beginning? There's nothing that would deteriorate their trust more. So why not cause chaos to try to overwhelm the Ukrainians? That's what I assume his strategy is. However, there are reports by US intelligence that he isn't getting the full picture from his advisors, if this is true then that also plays a role.

you are aware majority living there are russians ?

 

[Martin Everson]

I do believe you read here all messages by users, not only mine. that's why I made a decision that if you ignore these insults - you decided they are fine.

I asked for facts regarding the allegations you made against me and you have given none. You said the below which is a complete lie as far as I can determine and I have given you a warning for this naked attempt at division . It does not paint a good picture of yourself when you lie like this.

@James Spader As my reports to messages with insults to users are reviewed by Martin and ignored, I have asked to the different admin and in different way to to moderate rude users in this thread.

There is a "Report" link below every post that you can use to report a post. I encourage you to use this function in future.

P.S I have asked James to confirm if any posts were reported in case I am unable to see them.

UPDATE: I have confirmed no reports you claim were made. I ask you politely again to use "Report" function in future rather than lie to try and get people in trouble. We are all adults here.

 

[John Spectre]

I asked for facts regarding the allegations you made against me and you have given none. You said the below which is a complete lie as far as I can determine and I have given you a warning for this naked attempt at division . It does not paint a good picture of yourself when you lie like this.

lol. you just ignore everything that is not in favor of topic you would like to discuss.
You are moderator here. You readed topic. Your obligation to moderate inappropriate content, which you do selective.

BTW, you made a warning not to me, but for dreamer. As it only one mentioned word in this thread about warnings.

that's why I don't want to continue discuss it with you and called James number of messages above.
Asking 3rd party to invlove are the only reasonable way to solve this issue.
You can't be objective judge for case where I am and you in dispute and you have moderator privilege at same time.

Literally you are the policeman which I've called to help because of a murder, but you tell me f**k off, because watched on some guy who are just paining something with a pencil and you think that he could paint swastica. And i'm going to call prosecutor/judge to confirm or deny that you are doing something wrong. Hope you understand my allegory

UPDATE: I have confirmed no reports you claim were made. I ask you politely again to use "Report" function in future rather than lie to try and get people in trouble. We are all adults here.

you are too obsessed with 'report' button,
ignoring fact that real problem with badly moderated content on the topic, but not how exactly violations are reported

 

[Golden Fleece]

The notion of Putin deliberately destroying Ukranian cities and killing civilians just makes no sense. Why would he do that if his plans are to turn Eastern Ukraine into Russia's controlled territory and gain people's trust?

Who said that he wants the trust of a people in an occupied nation? Did the Soviet Union ever seek the trust of the people who they enslaved? Did pre-Soviet Russia ever seek the trust of people in occupied countries? No, the Russians terrorized them and even tried to destroy their culture and their languages.

Moreover, fighting in cities is notoriously the most dangerous type of warfare for an invader. Putin does not have the manpower to undertake city fighting in all the large cities of the second largest country in Europe. The only way to take all those cities is to maximize both deaths and destruction to terrorize the people into submission. BTW: That is also the long-standing standard Russian warfare tactic.

 

[369]

Who said that he wants the trust of a people in an occupied nation? Did the Soviet Union ever seek the trust of the people who they enslaved? Did pre-Soviet Russia ever seek the trust of people in occupied countries? No, the Russians terrorized them and even tried to destroy their culture and their languages.

Moreover, fighting in cities is notoriously the most dangerous type of warfare for an invader. Putin does not have the manpower to undertake city fighting in all the large cities of the second largest country in Europe. The only way to take all those cities is to maximize both deaths and destruction to terrorize the people into submission. BTW: That is also the long-standing standard Russian warfare tactic.

For a 40 million country where are the 100.000 thousands of deaths if he wants to destroy and kill them to create fear ?

More than 900 civilians have died in Ukraine. The true number is likely much higher

Many of the casualties occurred in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in Ukraine's east, which are partially controlled by separatist rebels backed by Russia.

www.npr.org

900 ......seems putin can't shoot

ukraine has way more deaths on car accidents

 

[Martin Everson]

BTW, you made a warning not to me, but for dreamer. As it only one mentioned word in this thread about warnings.

You got a warning for a blatant malicious lie against me that your not even bothering to deny....lol.

You can't be objective judge for case where I am and you in dispute and you have moderator privilege at same time.

I have an opinion which a lot of people hate. The majority of people are rightly in support of Ukraine. I tried to balance the discussion rightly or wrongly with an opposing view. People take that to mean your some sort of Russian puppet if your not blindly in support of Zelensky's actions.

Look everything I talked about regarding people protecting their mental health in order to stop themselves becoming radicalized is true and applies to you. Your spending an unhealthy amount of time on this thread and its affecting your mind and your judgement. From telling a lie about me to trying to involve James Spader.

Just chill out for a moment and take a break before you lose your sanity. You will thank me one day.

 

[John Spectre]

You got a warning for a blatant malicious lie against me that your not even bothering to deny....lol.

If you've gotten to the point of scaring people with warnings because of your fears in some public forum, what kind of gratitude can you be talking about?
First one for fake nazi propaganda,
Second one for some 'lie' because of poor moderated thread. I'm still wait for warning to 369 in case you strict to your position.

Your emotions betrayed you long before today's discussion,
when you ignored the deaths of thousands of people and the misfortune of millions, but noted a lot about the Azov nazis. It was your first comments on this thread meant that it's a what worries you about this war, not the lives of the civilian people

 

[369]

noted a lot about the Azov nazis. It was your first comments on this thread meant that it's a what worries you about this war, not the lives of the civilian people

ouch what a blatant lie again.
martin always expressed about his sadness of the civilians and that they are the true victims caused by both sides and that governments should focus on THEM.
So you clearly attack each and everything who doesn't support your limited point of view creating never ending lies to discredit
Don't get me wrong but isnt it in the psyop guideline if you can't push a topic to your side you discredit the authors of oppesed opinions ?

 

[Martin Everson]

If you've gotten to the point of scaring people with warnings because of your fears in some public forum, what kind of gratitude can you be talking about?
First one for fake nazi propaganda,
Second one for some 'lie' because of poor moderated thread.

Your still not taking responsibility for the lie you told to put me in hot water....lol. You lied about me to James Spader so what else you lied about...lol? See your lie below . Who does this sort of thing but a desperate person...lol.

@James Spader As my reports to messages with insults to users are reviewed by Martin and ignored, I have asked to the different admin and in different way to to moderate rude users in this thread.

Your emotions betrayed you long before today's discussion,
when you ignored the deaths of thousands of people and the misfortune of millions, but noted a lot about the Azov nazis. It was your first comments on this thread meant that it's a what worries you about this war, not the lives of the civilian people

Again your lying about "ignoring". I just highlighted the intricacies of war and the Azov Battalion which are neo nazi's armed by the west. These aint a group or neo nazi's minding their own business they are part of military fighting and being armed by west. I can express my displeasure over giving radical elements weapons without at same time being unsympathetic to Ukraines displaced and killed. I have called for peace since day one.

P.S Don't get so emotional and try an be logical in your thinking it will prevent you from telling future lies based of emotions.

I'm still wait for warning to 369 in case you strict to your position.

Oh and I called 369 out and asked him to present his source. He did and the debate continued with others challenging it back and forth. Again if you feel in future someone is out of pocket then use the "Report" button and don't lie you reported posts to me and complain to James Spader.....lol

If @Dreamy is happy to present his source of information confirming their is NO nazi's in Ukraine then I will happily take back what I said. Can't say more than that.

 

[KDX]

Again your lying about "ignoring". I just highlighted the intricacies of war and the Azov Battalion which are neo nazi's armed by the west. These aint a group or neo nazi's minding their own business they are part of military fighting and being armed by west. I can express my displeasure over giving radical elements weapons without at same time being unsympathetic to Ukraines displaced and killed. I have called for peace since day one.

P.S Don't get so emotional and try an be logical in your thinking it will prevent you from telling future lies based of emotions.

Armed by the west? Not really. Is the west supposed to say "sorry, until you remove this army we will not give you any weapons"? They are a part of Ukraine's army, not the west's.

You're saying you are for peace, I assume that means that Zelenskyy should've given into their demands (give their territory and become neutral etc.)

I don't agree. You can't always just give in, especially when you know there will be further aggression. Some Putin lovers here keep mentioning the interview of Zelenskyy's advisor where he said there would be a war if they wanted to join NATO, but they never mention the fact that he also said, if they didn't, they would get eaten up by Russia in 10-12 years. I don't think he was wrong.

It's easy to say you want peace. So does the ROC/Taiwan. Should they also get eaten up by their neighbor? It's not so simple..

 

[John Spectre]

Your still not taking responsibility for the lie you told to put me in hot water....lol. You lied about me to James Spader so what else you lied about...lol? See your lie below . Who does this sort of thing but a desperate person...lol.






Again your lying about "ignoring". I just highlighted the intricacies of war and the Azov Battalion which are neo nazi's armed by the west. These aint a group or neo nazi's minding their own business they are part of military fighting and being armed by west. I can express my displeasure over giving radical elements weapons without at same time being unsympathetic to Ukraines displaced and killed. I have called for peace since day one.

P.S Don't get so emotional and try an be logical in your thinking it will prevent you from telling future lies based of emotions.



Oh and I called 369 out and asked him to present his source. He did and the debate continued with others challenging it back and forth. Again if you feel in future someone is out of pocket then use the "Report" button and don't lie you reported posts to me and complain to James Spader.....lol

If @Dreamy is happy to present his source of information confirming their is NO nazi's in Ukraine then I will happily take back what I said. Can't say more than that.

#457 #459 messages are clear reports and you should take action against it. Not with 'report' button, but still. These messages are seeing for everyone in forum and you can't hide them, until delete by yourself. Even after you blamed me with lying.
But what was your reaction for it? Everyone saw. Good luck with your 'neutral' position.

I will not continue dialogue with you on this, because it should be stopped even after msg #459 by your proper reaction, not with this flame.

 

[Martin Everson]

Armed by the west? Not really. Is the west supposed to say "sorry, until you remove this army we will not give you any weapons"? They are a part of Ukraine's army, not the west's.

Thats a good question. Should west support and arm a Neo-nazi Battalion as long as they are against their enemy? Should the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" apply here? In end it comes down to moral values of those making the decision.

You're saying you are for peace, I assume that means that Zelenskyy should've given into their demands (give their territory and become neutral etc.)

Is Zelensky negotiating something vastly different now? Have not followed the latest news on this. I made the point that if he does negotiate something similiar to what you mention then what has he achieved?

I don't agree. You can't always just give in, especially when you know there will be further aggression. Some Putin lovers here keep mentioning the interview of Zelenskyy's advisor where he said there would be a war if they wanted to join NATO, but they never mention the fact that he also said, if they didn't, they would get eaten up by Russia in 10-12 years. I don't think he was wrong.

Keep in mind no one knows what happened behind the scenes or what was said. For me the question of going to war is a last result when your life is in danger and there is no other alternative. Whether they reached that point behind the scenes I don't know. But then when you make that decision it is important to assess your ability to win a war otherwise its plain suicide for honor and sovereignty.

It's easy to say you want peace. So does the ROC/Taiwan. Should they also get eaten up by their neighbor? It's not so simple..

Taiwan is a province of China and is recognized as part of China by even US and most diplomatic missions globally. This is not the same situation unfortunately. Educate yourself n that matter before comparing.

#457 #459 messages are clear reports and you should take action against it. Not with 'report' button, but still. These messages are seeing for everyone in forum and you can't hide them, until delete buy yourself.
But what was your reaction for it? Everyone saw. Good luck with your 'neutral' position.

Please use the "Report" button so we have a history of who reported what and when. It will then appear in the queue for staff. Don't be stubborn. Thank you .

 

[KDX]

Taiwan is a province of China and is recognized as part of China by even US and most diplomatic missions globally. This is not the same situation unfortunately. Educate yourself n that matter before comparing.

Martin, with all the due respect. Are you f*** serious? You are literally making a fool out of yourself.

Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China, not People's Republic of China, the china that you know. The ROC fled to Taiwan and the PRC took over the mainland, thus there are currently 2 Chinas. Almost every country recognizes ROC & Taiwan but cannot formally have ties with the ROC due to the PRC's diplomacy.

I suggest YOU educate yourself first. I'm quite amazed at what you're typing here.

 

[Martin Everson]

Martin, with all the due respect. Are you f*** serious? You are literally making a fool out of yourself.

Taiwan is a part of the Republic of China, not People's Republic of China, the china that you know. The ROC fled to Taiwan and the PRC took over the mainland, thus there are currently 2 Chinas. Almost every country recognizes ROC & Taiwan but cannot formally have ties with the ROC due to the PRC's diplomacy.

I suggest YOU educate yourself first. I'm quite amazed at what you're typing here.

What part of Province of China don't you understand? Oh you want to play semantics . You maybe want to read up on the "One China Policy" which the US supports like I said .

Joe Biden says US adheres to 'One China' policy & not Taiwan's Independence: Chinese Media

In a major blow to Taiwan, reportedly US President Joe Biden has cleared their stance over the disputed region and said it supports the 'one China policy'.

www.republicworld.com

P.S Notice you never replied to my questions. The rage enveloped you I guess after reading my logical responses to your points .

 

[KDX]

What part of Province of China don't you understand? Oh you want to play semantics . You maybe want to read up on the "One China Policy" which the US supports like I said .

Joe Biden says US adheres to 'One China' policy & not Taiwan's Independence: Chinese Media

In a major blow to Taiwan, reportedly US President Joe Biden has cleared their stance over the disputed region and said it supports the 'one China policy'.

www.republicworld.com

"One-China Policy" does not say that the Free zone of ROC is controlled by the PRC.

Historically both governments acknowledged the one china policy but there was no definition of who is the legitimate government of that so called "China". In reality, the governments were split into two, the communist, and the nationalist government (KMT). Today, the ROC is vastly different from the ROC that fled to Taiwan. It's a democracy now, and the one china policy is something that may be given up, just because there is no way that in the near future, the ROC will somehow become the government of mainland China. The DPP rejects the one china principle, which I think is the right way to go about it.

Regarding the US policy, it's incredibly vague. It's not as simple as you think.

"the United States strongly opposes unilateral efforts to change the status quo or undermine peace and stability across the Taiwan Strait" AKA, keep the 2 Chinas and their territories as they are right now. The US does not say that Taiwan should be governed by PRC and they have a right to invade it or anything like that.

Try and see what happens if the PRC goes in and establishes a military presence in the ROC, you'll see countries quickly condemning it. The one china principle is not something that countries agree with, they just kind of have to say on paper that they agree with it.


I really don't understand you here, aren't you one for peace and all? Yet you are literally talking like a PRC China bot lol. Super weird.

P.S Notice you never replied to my questions. The rage enveloped you I guess after reading my logical responses to your points .

??? what?

 

[Martin Everson]

Sorry why are we discussing China on this thread . Do you want to just create a distraction cause you cannot answer my questions I replied with....lol?

P.S Create a new thread if you want to discuss China and we can do so there. I thought this thread was about Ukraine conflict .

 

[KDX]

Sorry why are we discussing China on this thread . Do you want to just create a distraction cause you cannot answer my questions I replied with....lol?

P.S Create a new thread if you want to discuss China and we can do so there.

What questions did you want to ask me? That the Ukrainian president is negotiating peace terms? From what I've seen there has been like 4 times that negotiations have been made and Russia has promised to "reduce military operations" or whatever, and then explosions are heard immediately. I don't think either side is taking peace talks seriously at this point.

If there are other questions, please ask away. Don't try to say I'm trying to distract you or anything when I'm one of the most responsive people here on this thread. If I missed anything, that's my bad but you can't accuse me of "trying to cause a distraction" or whatever.

 

[Martin Everson]

What questions did you want to ask me?

Lol...see below 4 questions I asked. Your obviously in a fit of rage and didn't bother to read what I wrote. Chill for a minute....ll

Should west support and arm a Neo-nazi Battalion as long as they are against their enemy?

Should the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" apply here?

Is Zelensky negotiating something vastly different now?

I made the point that if he does negotiate something similiar to what you mention then what has he achieved?

P.S I will be away shortly so don't take my silence as not responding to what you replied with. I will read when back

 

[KDX]

Lol...see below 4 questions I asked. Your obviously in a fit of rage and didn't bother to read what I wrote. Chill for a minute....ll

To me it seemed like there were not questions that I was supposed to answer to but, okay. I like how you are somehow claiming that I'm in a "fit of rage" because I don't agree with you. But hey, that's your way of discussing.

P.S I will be away shortly so don't take my silence as not responding to what you replied with. I will read when back

I'm not the one here accusing you of not responding/trying to distract. I understand that.

Should west support and arm a Neo-nazi Battalion as long as they are against their enemy?

Should the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" apply here?

Not an easy answer. I think some of the people in Azov are quite unhinged and I wonder how they'll be if the Ukrainian government tries to disarm them... However, there is a war and it's not really a time for cherrypicking... there's even foreigners coming in to fight..

"enemy of my enemy is my friend" Every nation that's involved definitely is applying this. If it can solve the conflict probably. But If Ukraine is successful after this war, I think Azov should be put to rest. Either stop the stupid neo-nazi stuff or leave.

Is Zelensky negotiating something vastly different now?

As I said, his advisors have said that it was basically, either given in to the demands and risk being annexed by Russia completely, or give it a try and hopefully join NATO.

I don't know really, but I don't think they're about to give in to the Russians demands, especially when they still seem to be doing ok fending off the invaders.

I made the point that if he does negotiate something similiar to what you mention then what has he achieved?

Nothing. That's why I think he's not gonna be relying on those negotiations.