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USA LLC owned by European resident = VAT or no ?

tomboy

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Jun 14, 2019
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Hi all -

I am a European resident, let say, in Spain. I own a USA LLC incorporated in Delaware and I elected that it would be taxed as a C-corp.

I work with companies all over the world. When these companies are based outside Europe, then no problem.

Now, let say, one of my client is a company in Europe (Italy, Spain or France - does not matter I guess) As I am a fiscal resident in Spain, should my USA LLC charge VAT to my European client or no ?

thank you !
 
Hi - yes I am aware that the owner of the US company being a spanish fiscal need to pay taxes in Spain.
The Spanish owner is registered as an "autonomo" (self employed) and flushes the profit of the US corp to Spain and therefore pays income taxes in Spain and social security in Spain.
the only thing I am wondering - is - if vat need to be collected when working with European clients.
 
No, your "US" company has to register in Spain and pay corporate tax in Spain like a Spanish company.
Probably you will then get a Spanish VAT ID and use that to invoice your clients, just like with a Spanish company.
You will have to file tax returns for your company both in the US and in Spain.
You cannot just pretend the US company is like a client of yours and it pays its taxes only in the US. Did you get any kind of legal advice for your setup?
 
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Whether you need to register for VAT depends on a few factors. Check VAT on digital services/MOSS: What services are covered? - Your Europe

Foreign companies are in many cases supposed to charge/pay VAT on sales to non-VAT registered persons in the EU/EEA. Of course, a lot of companies don't, either by malice or ignorance. The EU doesn't have the resources to go after them all. But I have seen several examples of EU tax authorities issuing estimated tax invoices to non-EU companies and threatening prosecution if they don't pay. Not a fun situation.

In your case, your US LLC is a Spanish company for tax purposes. So you have to apply all the same tax rules as for a local company. You should be able to get a VAT number for it. The US LLC is basically just a cross-border headache you've added to your business.
 
No, your "US" company has to register in Spain and pay corporate tax in Spain like a Spanish company.
Probably you will then get a Spanish VAT ID and use that to invoice your clients, just like with a Spanish company.
You will have to file tax returns for your company both in the US and in Spain.
You cannot just pretend the US company is like a client of yours and it pays its taxes only in the US. Did you get any kind of legal advice for your setup?
I think you misunderstood the setup. The US LLC is taxed as a C-corp. all the profit is being flushed to Spain and taxes are being paid in Spain.
No tax liability in the U.S as no profit in the U.S.
Yes I've been advised to do this by all the firms I contacted.
 
don't know how spain treats the LLCs (if elected C-corp tax status), and that's what the guys above are trying to understand...
but are you saying that you are registered as autonomo in spain, invoice yourself in your name from the llc without intermediaries, and then you are paying the individual income taxes and social security as autonomo?
 
I think you misunderstood the setup

No, I think you did.

The US LLC is taxed as a C-corp.

The Spanish tax authorities probably won't care much about that, except for the fact that it's almost guaranteed to be treated as opaque (a Spanish corporation).

all the profit is being flushed to Spain

That could get you into trouble with the IRS for violation of transfer pricing restrictions. Then again, your company likely isn't tax resident in the US anyway.

and taxes are being paid in Spain.

Does your "US" company submit Spanish tax returns - yes or no? I'm only asking about the company, not yourself.

Yes I've been advised to do this by all the firms I contacted.

Were any of them licensed to advise on Spanish tax law?

It's not illegal to run a US company from Spain. But the way you're going about it violates Spanish law, and possibly US law as well.
 
should my USA LLC charge VAT to my European client or no


I own a USA LLC incorporated in Delaware and I elected that it would be taxed as a C-corp.

As @JustAnotherNomad said if you don't have staff employed in US that's running the company your C-corp is creating a permanent establishment in Spain so if you are paying taxes in US be aware that the same company should also pay taxes in Spain because it's where the work is done.

Since there's a DTT between Spain and US you will probably get tax credit on taxes your C-corp already paid in US.
 
don't know how spain treats the LLCs (if elected C-corp tax status), and that's what the guys above are trying to understand...
but are you saying that you are registered as autonomo in spain, invoice yourself in your name from the llc without intermediaries, and then you are paying the individual income taxes and social security as autonomo?
exactly you got it.
 
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No, I think you did.



The Spanish tax authorities probably won't care much about that, except for the fact that it's almost guaranteed to be treated as opaque (a Spanish corporation).



That could get you into trouble with the IRS for violation of transfer pricing restrictions. Then again, your company likely isn't tax resident in the US anyway.



Does your "US" company submit Spanish tax returns - yes or no? I'm only asking about the company, not yourself.



Were any of them licensed to advise on Spanish tax law?

It's not illegal to run a US company from Spain. But the way you're going about it violates Spanish law, and possibly US law as well.
First, I want to clarify that my intentions are not aggressive in any way, but merely inquisitive. If my responses seemed otherwise, I'm sorry and I am actually grateful that you spend time answering my queries.

1. My understanding is that the C-corporation tax structure is more applicable to the U.S segment of operations
2. Noted.
3. As per my current knowledge, the U.S incorporated company wouldn't be filing a Spanish tax return. (I would like to mention that this arrangement is not operational yet since my relocation to Spain is still pending.)
4. I have consulted several Spanish CPAs who I believe were (seemed to be) professionals. They have suggested this approach where the company profits are transferred to Spain, thus making them taxable in Spain.

However, I do appreciate your perspective on this structure and the points you've raised, as it seems to elicit certain complexities. I will continue to consult with Spanish legal and accounting professionals to gather more advice.

Thank you again for your valuable inputs.

Well, Technically, I do have the option to set up a company here, but given the nature of my business and the preferences of many of my clients, doing so wouldn't be beneficial. They have a certain aversion to this country, and that could affect my business negatively. Hence, the necessity for establishing a front in another country.
With my impending move, you might naturally ask why I don't simply start a company in Spain. The answer lies in continuity and familiarity. My company has been operational for some time now, and my clients have grown accustomed to it. I believe that maintaining this continuity is important and hence, I've chosen not to transition the company to Spain, despite my personal relocation. Additionally, there's a certain degree of anonymity provided by maintaining my business in its current location. This means my clients are not necessarily aware of my personal residence, which is not vital but is an aspect that I value. It adds an extra layer of privacy, which can be a desirable aspect in the business world.
 
Well, Technically, I do have the option to set up a company here

If i were in you i would elect the LLC to be treated as disregard entity.

I would form a Spanish company on which i would pay spanish CIT on all LLC income.

In this way all your clients will deal with the same entity their are accostumed to with all the privacy benefits you listed and you'll have to deal "only" with Hacienda.

In addition: depending on where you'll domicile your Spanish S.L. you can pay 12.5% CIT (Ceuta/Melilla) or 4% CIT (Canarias with at lest 3 people employed).

Have you thought about moving to Gibraltar instead of Spain?
 
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If i were in you i would elect the LLC to be treated as disregard entity.

I would form a Spanish company on which i would pay spanish CIT on all LLC income.

In this way all your clients will deal with the same entity their are accostumed to with all the privacy benefits you listed and you'll have to deal "only" with Hacienda.

In addition: depending on where you'll domicile your Spanish S.L. you can pay 12.5% CIT (Ceuta/Melilla) or 4% CIT (Canarias with at lest 3 people employed).

Have you thought about moving to Gibraltar instead of Spain?
Marzio,

Thank you for your answers and suggestions. They are very useful.

regarding relocating to specific areas with low taxes, it's not really an option since I am moving with my wife and kids. therefore, I need all the facilities of a "big city" school and so on...

thanks again!
 
man... If they get you nobody is going to save from CIT taxes, full PIT (autonomo is a low % regime?) and fines and maybe VAT charges too...
IRS knows it, FINCEN is setting up a registry of foreign UBOs. Nobody knows how things will go next years.
Dems are still pushing for full FATCA reciprocity.
You are "flushing" money out of a corp and expecting it will be deemed tax resident in USA... IRS surely not going to be happy with that. Hacienda neither... so if the thing get raised, you'll be right in between a crossfire.

we all know the only somewhat safe thing to do these days...
f**k the almost bankrupt eu countries and move:

Dubai_Welcome.jpg


I hate dubai with force when compared to Italy, Spain and the Med countries....
but peace of mind is important. And your setup is asking for troubles in future.
you know... it's all fun and it flies till you are small.
The moment you reach millions (not necessarely in a year, they can sum 5-10 years in a single investigation), then they'll come knock at your door.
Plenty of horror stories in EU these days. even young kids (youtubers etc) especially in these southern EU countries (Italy, Spain etc).
What's worst is that if they take you to court, it's going to last many years and, forget the money, your family is the one that will get hurt the most.
Never know how a wife (with kids) will handle such a situation till you find yourself in.
You may end up paying the hacienda, the lawyers, and forced by law give away your house and pay food to the wife's lover too nai¤%
 
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First, I want to clarify that my intentions are not aggressive in any way, but merely inquisitive. If my responses seemed otherwise, I'm sorry and I am actually grateful that you spend time answering my queries.

No, you didn't come off as aggressive in any way, just terribly misinformed.

1. My understanding is that the C-corporation tax structure is more applicable to the U.S segment of operations

I'll explain how it works in general. I don't know anything about Spain in particular, this is just general information. Please talk to a tax professional who has experience in international taxation about this, ideally both in the US and in Spain.

A company can be taxed as an entity of its own (opaque), as a corporation. Or it can be transparent for tax purposes (like a partnership), which means that the tax authorities "look through"/disregard the company and tax the owners of the company as if they had done the work under their own personal name.
A US LLC can either be transparent (taxed as a partnership/disregarded entity), or it can be taxed as a corporation, as a thing of its own.
When taxed as a corporation, there are some restrictions for how much money you can invoice (transfer pricing restrictions). You typically can't just take out 100% of the profits, especially when you move the profits to another country. They will say you were trying to avoid US taxes.
That's the US side.

Then you have the Spanish side: Any foreign company doing business in Spain (or pretty much any other developed country for that matter) has to pay taxes in that country.
Yes, the company itself.
So your US company has to register in Spain (as a branch or something similar) because you manage the company from Spain and then pay taxes in Spain, because that's the law in Spain.
Even if there's no profit, the company will likely still have to be registered in Spain. You will then also receive a Spanish VAT ID for the US company and apply VAT to your invoices like for a Spanish company (but your VAT ID will be Spanish, so your clients will know you're in Spain).

On top of that, in Spain, the Spanish authorities may rule that you cannot invoice a company that is owned by yourself as autonomo.
Instead, you would probably have to either make yourself an employee, or pay yourself through dividends, or a combination of both.

Long story short, you may very soon find yourself in a situation where you have to deal with both US and Spanish bureaucracy.
Your company may have to pay taxes in both countries. There's a tax treaty to avoid this, but it will likely be a lot of paperwork to get a refund or credit for taxes paid in the US.

If you choose for your US LLC to be taxed as a disregarded entity (not sure if that's still possible if you chose earlier that it should be taxed as a corporation), then at least in the US, there probably won't be any tax, if you don't work in the US and don't have employees or clients there.
But then it would still be unclear how Spain would view the company: They could either say it should be taxed as a corporation in Spain regardless (likely), or they could say it's transparent in Spain as well, in which case you'd probably be taxed as autonomo (I doubt that would happen, though).

In any case, this is really complex stuff if you want to make sure you're really compliant with all laws in both countries.
There's a good chance you'll just fly under the radar, and maybe that's what the advisors were thinking about (lax enforcement in Spain if there's no profit to be taxed anyway), but if it's discovered after five years that your setup was violating regulations, fixing your mistakes can quickly get expensive.
Ideally you should find a Spanish tax advisor that has a lot of experience with US taxes.

You could start with this list:

But it's not a recommendation, they may suck and there may be better ones out there.

3. As per my current knowledge, the U.S incorporated company wouldn't be filing a Spanish tax return. (I would like to mention that this arrangement is not operational yet since my relocation to Spain is still pending.)

Not correct, if the company has permanent establishment in Spain/is managed from Spain, it will be just like a Spanish company for the Spanish tax authorities, so it has to submit Spanish tax returns.

4. I have consulted several Spanish CPAs who I believe were (seemed to be) professionals. They have suggested this approach where the company profits are transferred to Spain, thus making them taxable in Spain.

You should ask them about corporate tax residency, permanent establishment and CFC rules in Spain. And also about regulations about social security - I doubt you can be autonomo with a company owned by yourself as your only client.

My company has been operational for some time now, and my clients have grown accustomed to it. I believe that maintaining this continuity is important and hence, I've chosen not to transition the company to Spain, despite my personal relocation.

Sure, you can do that. You should just know that there will be a lot of paperwork required to do this by the book.
 
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Alright - thank you so much for all your inputs.

I will keep on searching for tax advisors/lawyer to structure this the best, I feel like people I spoke to until haven't seen/understood the full picture.

i will update the thread once with the result of my research !
 
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