Where should one keep their wealth to avoid future potential sanctions?

[MiddleEuroAsia]

That is way too doomish for my liking regarding crypto as a whole but for some centralized "crypto projects" this is accurate.

I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying that if the US and the rest of the west want to f the crypto market, they absolutely can do so. Even "decentrailzed" tokens/projects depends on the network and liquidity of centralized digital assets, So, you can't help but ask, how can you swap these DEFI tokens for centralized one to be able to cash out, if the centralized one are put under hard scrutiny by western governments? the answer is, you can't. specially for larger amount of money/tokens.

In theory an option, in practice not. The residence-by-investment scheme is dead (for Westerners) since the start of the protests in 2019.
Time of cherry picking is over: Westerners need to learn that the world has gotten a lot smaller for them.

Really, can't you just have an investment visa that's issued for your HK company? I know it's hard to meet the full requirements but it's not impossible.

Out of interest after seeing what happened to Russia I have no intention of ever investing in anything Chinese from outside China. We already saw stocks de-listed in US for China Telecom etc. The US regime will at some point go nuts on China to stop it becoming officially the worlds biggest economy so I see lies, war, propaganda followed by sanctions coming to China from the US and its allies. I would only invest in China via Chinese domestic financial institutions in HK or mainland China. So this remains an option.

Malaysian banks could be an option too, most of them has branches in HK and mainland china, So, maybe a something to consider (although I'm very skeptical of the current gov)

 

[backpacker]

HSBC is the majority share holder of Hang Seng, so I wouldn't call them domestic, unless HSBC is also considered domestic.

That's true. Still it is the only major "domestic" bank because it preserved it's administrative independence.
Wing Hang is the opposite since they got fully integrated into OCBC procedure-wise.

 

[DSCorp]

EURRS politican sees your money as theirs .Its diffrent in US and China.

Debt is in general not an issue.Once wealth is sucked out UN will meet and just rescind the debt.


Is it possible to replicate it ?
I'm now moving outside of EU and loosing majority of my save income which would be soon destroyed anyways.
So am currently looking for solutions for income outside the EU which are safe in deep recessions.

Not sure what Martin Everson is doing but, here are some ideas: own commercial real estate with long term leases, resorts, hotels, casinos and multi-family facilities with consistent rent agreements of 12 months or more. Cash stake or ownership in grocery and goods businesses, own the property and collect rent from essential businesses that will be around in the worst of times. Hospitals or medical facilities or clinics, people will always need some sort of medical service, from child birth on up, and doctors will come and take residence there....Set that up in multiple countries. Through time the properties (hard assets) will appreciate and the probably of income in a diversified portfolio of industries should be consistent. Takes a while to set up, and more to unwind, but not as susceptible to market fluctuatiuons.

 

[backpacker]

, can't you just have an investment visa that's issued for your HK company?

As I said, depends on the type of company. It is definitely no longer possible for somebody who wants to invest a meager 7-figure-amount and then is not employing any locals.
Actually, all this is not worth the effort considering that there are plenty of alternatives which are easier.

Malaysian banks could be an option too, most of them has branches in HK and mainland china, So, maybe a something to consider (although I'm very skeptical of the current gov)

Malaysia and its banks are Western aligned. Not a safe alternative for somebody who seeks independence from potential future sanctions.

 

[369]

Not sure what Martin Everson is doing but, here are some ideas: own commercial real estate with long term leases, resorts, hotels, casinos and multi-family facilities with consistent rent agreements of 12 months or more. Cash stake or ownership in grocery and goods businesses, own the property and collect rent from essential businesses that will be around in the worst of times. Hospitals or medical facilities or clinics, people will always need some sort of medical service, from child birth on up, and doctors will come and take residence there....Set that up in multiple countries. Through time the properties (hard assets) will appreciate and the probably of income in a diversified portfolio of industries should be consistent. Takes a while to set up, and more to unwind, but not as susceptible to market fluctuatiuons.

I disagree here.
I sold my hotel already as it has no future in the next decade.
Remember in a financial crisis people always spare money of goods/services which they don't need.Last year tourism was already dead if not the governmental coupons which ended in end of 2021.
Luckily i sold before 2020 already "knowing" that a big recession is coming.
Commerce RE won't be used much longer as more and more staff gets centralized and sold via internet.
Doctors etc is getting moved also into a direction where you won't meet him anymore.
Also RE are overpriced in value and a lot of debtors are going to tank in the next few years.

The direction goes clearly to smart cities where i won't invest a dime to finance my own prision

I remember being in a closed conference in 2019 where they told people will have to wear health bands which will control everything and if somebody denies his health insurence price will be increased by 3-4 times.

Also there comes an event imo which will decrease the demand of RE outside of tier1 cities massivly.And in tier1 cities you won't find any RE with good yield

Actually, all this is not worth the effort considering that there are plenty of alternatives which are easier.

at which one would you recommend to have a look at ?

 

[MiddleEuroAsia]

Malaysia and its banks are Western aligned. Not a safe alternative for somebody who seeks independence from potential future sanctions.

One step at a time, you can't cut ties completely with the western world, we are at the peak of globalization and we have seen all the bad and good things that come with it in the last 2 years.

You start with a malaysian bank, build some relationships with the bank, open a HK Bank account with your MY bank branch in HK, invest in a couple of HK companies to have that "business history" in HK, then open a full fledged HK bank account.

It will take some time, but it's better than nothing.
Plus, I say that it's not impossible, because I have a direct experience in this matter. I have a HK company and I source directly from shanghai, I happen to also have a local bank account with one of the largest banks in HK, I will admit tho, that I deal mainly with EMIs because but I do so, because HK EMIs are efficient and they provide fast settlments, but for cash reserves, my local HK bank account is more than fine.

 

[backpacker]

at which one would you recommend to have a look at ?

Look into UZ: Outside of the beaten track, nobody cares about the West over there. UZ banking is surprisingly good. Investing locally has become pretty easy in recent years.
To do anything meaningful (incl. banking) you will need a business visa/investor visa. It is easy to secure one.
Get your boots on the ground, bring with you good mood and a bit of patience.

Another favourite of mine is EG. Not that it is independent from the West. But it flies under the radar, won't get sanctioned by anybody (even in the direct aftermath of the awful Arab Spring it was just a handful of very famous politicians who were on sanction-lists) and plays a balanced game between East and West. Banking is excellent over there and investments are always welcome. Western nations won't seize your assets in EG - too complicated, any attempt to do so will produce a "'zero-result".

 

[FantomOffshore]

Decentralized stablecoins, crypto or algorithmically backed are always an option. The stable I would personally choose would be DAI as it is completely decentralized. Then have the wallet on a laptop running Qubes OS, encrypt the recovery phrase and store the encrypted phrase in two separate bank vaults so that even in case of theft by an employee, a bankjob or natural disaster you still have your phrase and your phrase cannot be read.

There are also third-party options in Switzerland for example that I cannot list here due to promotion rules.

 

[369]

Decentralized stablecoins, crypto or algorithmically backed are always an option. The stable I would personally choose would be DAI as it is completely decentralized. Then have the wallet on a laptop running Qubes OS, encrypt the recovery phrase and store the encrypted phrase in two separate bank vaults so that even in case of theft by an employee, a bankjob or natural disaster you still have your phrase and your phrase cannot be read.

There are also third-party options in Switzerland for example that I cannot list here due to promotion rules.

There are many people who lost a fortune because of DAI's bugs.
Also DAI is not stable if people will flee from USD

 

[FantomOffshore]

There are many people who lost a fortune because of DAI's bugs.
Also DAI is not stable if people will flee from USD

In case of a dollar-collapse yes, you would lose your money. Pretty unlikely in my opinion but possible. If you want to hedge against this there is always the Terra Luna stablecoin which also has EUR, CHF, JPY etc. And there is also the less proven but interesting Pax Gold which is a token backed by physical gold.

Regarding the bugs, there has been a lot of development and bug hunting but I agree smart contract risk is always there. However, given the sizable amounts of capital crypto projects have at their disposal these days I think we will see less attacks and sackings on stablecoins / big projects than before.

The big pro is that you can easily bring your money everywhere, and for the Luna-ecosystem of stables you can even get a credit-card enabling you to pay directly out of your savings account.

 

[369]

In case of a dollar-collapse yes, you would lose your money. Pretty unlikely in my opinion but possible. If you want to hedge against this there is always the Terra Luna stablecoin which also has EUR, CHF, JPY etc. And there is also the less proven but interesting Pax Gold which is a token backed by physical gold.

Regarding the bugs, there has been a lot of development and bug hunting but I agree smart contract risk is always there. However, given the sizable amounts of capital crypto projects have at their disposal these days I think we will see less attacks and sackings on stablecoins / big projects than before.

The big pro is that you can easily bring your money everywhere, and for the Luna-ecosystem of stables you can even get a credit-card enabling you to pay directly out of your savings account.

There will be no collapse of USD.USD will just loose its sole major role as world reserve currency which will cost about 50% of its value.
Once this happens noone wants to hold his savings in USD and this could cause big trouble for DAI.

Luna is hot because they will offer stablecoin based on SDR's

 

[FantomOffshore]

There will be no collapse of USD.USD will just loose its sole major role as world reserve currency which will cost about 50% of its value.
Once this happens noone wants to hold his savings in USD and this could cause big trouble for DAI.

Luna is hot because they will offer stablecoin based on SDR's

50% of its value sounds like a collapse to me and there is no way to be certain about that happening any time soon. The US is still the #1 for talented people to go. And yes, SDR's will be very interesting and viable. My only fear is that Terra can be regulated.

 

[Golden Fleece]

And yes, SDR's will be very interesting and viable.

Luna is hot because they will offer stablecoin based on SDR's

SDRs are only held by the IMF and by sovereign governments. Are you guys saying that crypto coin creators will create a coin with a synthetic financial position based on the basket of currencies in an SDR?

If so, considering all the hacking and other security risks, how would such a synthetic financial position be superior to simply holding all five SDR currencies (in the proper ratios) in a multi-currency account in a strong, stable bank located in a trustworthy jurisdiction?

 

[FantomOffshore]

SDRs are only held by the IMF and by sovereign governments. Are you guys saying that crypto coin creators will create a coin with a synthetic financial position based on the basket of currencies in an SDR?

If so, considering all the hacking and other security risks, how would such a synthetic financial position be superior to simply holding all five SDR currencies (in the proper ratios) in a multi-currency account in a strong, stable bank located in a trustworthy jurisdiction?

This thread is about avoiding sanctions like the ones imposed on the Russians. A strong, stable bank located in a trustworthy jurisdiction can still be hit by sanctions or be affected by war etc.

 

[EuroKiss]

This thread is about avoiding sanctions like the ones imposed on the Russians. A strong, stable bank located in a trustworthy jurisdiction can still be hit by sanctions or be affected by war etc.

Stables based on SDR could mean adding many other currencies like Indian Rupee etc. In a certain form DAOs like wonderland and Olympus proposed a similar concept with stables minting and bonding. The good thing about crypto is that financial experimentation can be extremely fast.

 

[FantomOffshore]

Stables based on SDR could mean adding many other currencies like Indian Rupee etc. In a certain form DAOs like wonderland and Olympus proposed a similar concept with stables minting and bonding. The good thing about crypto is that financial experimentation can be extremely fast.

The Indian Rupee is not what one would consider a safe and non-risky currency and also much more volatile compared to USD, EUR, JPY, CHF. But yes, crypto is really going places apart from all the nonsense happening in the sector. Truly a joy to watch.

 

[EuroKiss]

The Indian Rupee is not what one would consider a safe and non-risky currency and also much more volatile compared to USD, EUR, JPY, CHF. But yes, crypto is really going places apart from all the nonsense happening in the sector. Truly a joy to watch.

Swap lines could stabilize currency market outside western banks, SDR eventually can bond over a basket just like DAI works over a basket of other crypto. CBDC could join DeFi and create a mixed market. Possibilities are endless, what I am sure is that the financial world will change fast, and I think crypto will play their part.

 

[Martin Everson]

A CDBC however is an option. I understand Huawei phones now ship with a digital yuan wallet in preparation for China's CDBC. But time will tell if they limit access to the CDBC only to China. Would love to be able to bypass western currencies and banks to hold some. Plenty of stuff in China I buy already.

 

[Golden Fleece]

If you are a Russian oligarch, selling fine art is now proving problematic, unless you sell to another collector:

"Sotheby’s conducts business in strict compliance with all applicable laws and regulations, including global sanctions," a spokesperson for Sotheby’s wrote in an email to FOX Business. "We are absolutely rigorous about following the present sanctions, and are monitoring closely for any updates to the lists."
* * *
In addition to the message from Sotheby's that it is pausing its Russian art sales, a spokesperson for Bonhams Fine Art Auctioneers & Valuers also told FOX Business that it has canceled the Russian art sale it had planned for Russian Art Week.

Similarly, staff at Christie’s Fine Art Auctioneer will refrain from selling Russian art as the war drags on. "While the current sales market for Christie's in Russia as a whole is relatively small, we have a responsibility to respond to our clients' needs and to geopolitical events that are out of our control," Christie's told Reuters.

MSN

 

[EuroKiss]

If you are a Russian oligarch, selling fine art is now proving problematic, unless you sell to another collector:

MSN

And after the ban of the Russian athletes at the paraolympics games, the stop at the any concert of Tchaikovsky, ban at teaching Dostovyesky and Tolstoy literature, ban at the name of Yury Gagarin, and so on, we now have a complete ban also at the “Russian art”.
With this bestial, ignorant and Luciferin cancel culture, western world deeply deserves being culturally and financially annihilated.