Moving to Swiss from Germany?

[denniz07]

Hello guys,
Im algo trading crypto on a private account in Germany and become very successful doing so.

Right now thinking about leaving Germany and going to Swiss (zug) and trade there as a private person. As I understand there is a 20% Tax on it. That would be fine compared to 45% in Germany including the regulatory uncertainty. So would have to pay very high exit tax on crypto (more then $1m) in Germany and then I would be free (anyway guess it is the only way to make it legal, didnt pay taxes yet but still have time)

What do you guys think. Is this a good idea? My main goal is to find an easy solution. Thinking also about creating later a company. Maybe in Gibraltar and as I understand swiss doesnt have strong CFC rules like Germany.

Thanks a lot for any hint !

 

[tsu458]

You could move to cyprus and do the algo trading within a LTD with 12.5% tax. Althought crypto regulation isn't a thing here (trading private would be up to 35% income tax), once your LTD got banking, it's a very good setup.

Regarding exit-tax please check this article - from my understanding, it might not apply: Verschärfung der Wegzugsbesteuerung im ATAD-Umsetzungsgesetz

If you would bring crypto assets with you, be aware income tax up to 35% applies if you sell them, regardless of holding period, because capital gains tax does not apply to crypto in cyprus.

Banking would be easier in Zug with a local company I guess, but taxes and cost of living are higher.

 

[denniz07]

Thanks a lot for the answer. So basically the income tax is lower in zug.

Would it be possible to start in Zug (20% tax as far as I know) and then create a company later next year in Cyprus or for example in Gibraltar. As Far as I know Swiss doesnt have strong cdc rules.
Actually looking for the most simple setup.

 

[Allisgood]

Hello guys,
Im algo trading crypto on a private account in Germany and become very successful doing so.

Right now thinking about leaving Germany and going to Swiss (zug) and trade there as a private person. As I understand there is a 20% Tax on it. That would be fine compared to 45% in Germany including the regulatory uncertainty. So would have to pay very high exit tax on crypto (more then $1m) in Germany and then I would be free (anyway guess it is the only way to make it legal, didnt pay taxes yet but still have time)

What do you guys think. Is this a good idea? My main goal is to find an easy solution. Thinking also about creating later a company. Maybe in Gibraltar and as I understand swiss doesnt have strong CFC rules like Germany.

Thanks a lot for any hint !

I had a look at this a while ago as well. But it seems it’s not that easy to move to Switzerland as an EU citizen without a job offer. With a job offer it’s similar to a move to another EU country but without a job offer you need to show a decent amount of savings to show that you can sustain yourself ? Or can you be self employed and move more easily ? Have you looked into the actual move itself as a German /EU citizen without job offer ?

 

[denniz07]

Exactly this is the only restriction that I have to self sustain myself. Basically after paying the exit taxes I would be able to show more then $1m in assets, so I think that should be enough. But of course not sure how things really work. Without crypto guess I could show only $100k that might be not enough. Could try to get a job offer part time but actually trying to avoid any overhead.
To be honest the most scary thing would be if the German authorities would start to observe me to get more taxes. Like if I visit Germany to often or whatever. Of course would try to live there at least for a year. But it may be a bit boring…

 

[JohnLocke]

Or can you be self employed and move more easily ?

Actually, You can setup a company AG or GmBH and be employed there, you need to pay in the share capital and show that the company can survive at least a year or to in the future.

Personally was very close to do it, but other circumstances put it on hold for now.

 

[denniz07]

What do you think is it necessary to setup a company? As I understand you would get basically nearly same tax conditions as proffesional trader. Just wanted to keep things simple and I think only a swiss citizan is allowed to create a company there. Also I think that for an offshore gibraltar may be better than Zug (just don’t want to move to Gibraltar personally)

 

[JohnLocke]

Sounds like you have lots of wrong information, speak with the guys below
www.fidinam.com

They can help you from company setup to everything else you need. They are not cheap but very professional.

In addition, if you are doing all this with only 25K euro in your pocket then forget about it, simply not worth it.

 

[denniz07]

What exactly do you think is wrong about my information? Of course will consult somebody when executing it. But in General my Information so far is quite simple
- It is allowed to move to Swiss from Germany if you show enough money.
- Tax is about 20% on crypto gains in Zug if they classify you as a proffesional trader. What I am. No need to create a company.
- Crypto Valley is in Zug so there is a lot of experience regarding handling Crypto Trading Business.
STEP 2 would be for me to create there or on a different location a company. But want to avoid it anyway in this year because of the Exit Taxes.

 

[CyprusLaw]

What exactly do you think is wrong about my information? Of course will consult somebody when executing it. But in General my Information so far is quite simple
- It is allowed to move to Swiss from Germany if you show enough money.
- Tax is about 20% on crypto gains in Zug if they classify you as a proffesional trader. What I am. No need to create a company.
- Crypto Valley is in Zug so there is a lot of experience regarding handling Crypto Trading Business.
STEP 2 would be for me to create there or on a different location a company. But want to avoid it anyway in this year because of the Exit Taxes.

Hi, as someone has suggested above Cyprus could be a solid option. It is becoming more and more crypto friendly, a lot of people are relocating for algo-trading though Cyprus companies, as the tax is at 12.5% only.

 

[cyprus123]

I agree about Cyprus as a very flexible option for such a crypto setup.

 

[369]

Please consider that making money in a bull run is no skill.Will you able to make profit in the long bear cycle ?

 

[denniz07]

Yes I think I would make at least 100k if the market crashes. Of course this is kind of a risk. But 100k is really the worst case. Best case may be 10m and is realistic.

What I don’t like about Cyprus is that it is a bit far away. Swiss (zug) can be even reached by train from Germany. So actually planning to spend a lot of time in Germany, since friends and relatives live here. Also they speak German so it is a plus as well.

Not sure how to move forward to be honest yet. Basically thinking even about staying in Germany since money isn’t most important. But a bit afraid from the German Tax authorities after they see such high profits..

 

[Sols]

If you spend too much time in Germany, the German tax authority might still come after you. You can of course visit as a tourist but if you have something that's effectively a second home in Germany, you risk becoming (remaining) tax resident there.

 

[denniz07]

Exactly I’m aware of it. So would of course try to spend no more then 180 days in Germany. Also spending more then 2 months is forbinden, as well as having a permanent key to an apartment. But anything might happen, so that I would have to visit Germany.
Not sure how strict the authorities are on such issues.

 

[369]

If you have an appartment in germany where you stay you are considered tax resident not important of the xxx day rule

 

[denniz07]

Yes exactly. But if I stay often at my parents place that might be as well not that good.
Also considering staying at a hotel. What I would like to avoid is to write down every day where I’m.

 

[Runway]

If you are a German or EU citizen you can relocate to Switzerland anytime, not sure where you guys read you need an offer letter. Many wealthy germans just retire in Switzerland.
There is no need to be recognized as a trader, just as self employed (sole proprietorship) see Setting up your company online: quick, easy, free of charge | Fasoon | Fasoon for the costs to set up the different legal entities

 

[JohnLocke]

If you have an appartment in germany where you stay you are considered tax resident not important of the xxx day rule

How if you have an apartment in both Zug and a city in Germany, wouldn't it trigger the 180 day rule? I think so if you can proof that you are only 180 days both places.

There is no need to be recognized as a trader, just as self employed (sole proprietorship) see Setting up your company online: quick, easy, free of charge | Fasoon | Fasoon for the costs to set up the different legal entities

Totally agree it does not only apply for Germans but for most EU citizens that have sufficient of money or a company that can secure living their for at least a year.

 

[wheelspin]

How if you have an apartment in both Zug and a city in Germany, wouldn't it trigger the 180 day rule? I think so if you can proof that you are only 180 days both places.

Even staying >183 days in Switzerland but having permanent access to an apartment makes you a tax resident of Germany. Severe all your ties. If you own an apartment just rent out and then you are only limited liability to tax ("Beschränkte Steuerpflicht").