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Re-introduce crypto gains to brick and mortar fiat bank

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Zikki

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May 30, 2021
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#1
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I've got some cryptos, no excessive amounts but alright.

I never invested in crypto any amount that I was not prepared to loose or needed to get back in standard fiat banks so I never really looked into it.

I heard that most banks freeze your account if you ever send FIAT money from known crypto exchanges (or known personal IBAN to be linked to them).

If I wanted to re-introduce some of my gains in "standard" banks, what would be the best way? I own crypto card so I could withdrawn money physically and depose it on a bank account but at one point in time they will ask for proof of fund and I will have to show them that's from crypto exchange platform anyway. Gains are interests and growth, no black market stuff but you never really know who originally own a crypto you bought on an exchange and fructified.

The other way would be to move these gains to a brokerage to invest in etfs and shares but it would be more or less the same hassle.

Any idea?
 
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#3
Zikki said:
I've got some cryptos, no excessive amounts but alright.

I never invested in crypto any amount that I was not prepared to loose or needed to get back in standard fiat banks so I never really looked into it.

I heard that most banks freeze your account if you ever send FIAT money from known crypto exchanges (or known personal IBAN to be linked to them).

If I wanted to re-introduce some of my gains in "standard" banks, what would be the best way? I own crypto card so I could withdrawn money physically and depose it on a bank account but at one point in time they will ask for proof of fund and I will have to show them that's from crypto exchange platform anyway. Gains are interests and growth, no black market stuff but you never really know who originally own a crypto you bought on an exchange and fructified.

The other way would be to move these gains to a brokerage to invest in etfs and shares but it would be more or less the same hassle.

Any idea?
Click to expand...
Why let strangers at banks, FI, or exchanges know you have crypto and possibly complicate your life further with the tax authorities?

Why not pay this way for what you want? :rolleyes:
1704400888191.webp


If you swapped your BTC for € on Jan. 4th, 2023 (about a year ago), you would have had ~€14K (fiat). Today, you have +€40K. Unless it's an organ transplant, I don't think anything is worth about 3 times its original price. :oops:
 
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#4
Zikki said:
I heard that most banks freeze your account if you ever send FIAT money from known crypto exchanges (or known personal IBAN to be linked to them).
Click to expand...
It depends on the particular bank. Even some classical banks are crypto-friendly, not even speaking about (some) EMIs.

Hence, a small amendment:
JohnnyDoe said:
Wallet—>exchange with personal iban—>fiat to bank
Click to expand...
Wallet—>exchange with personal iban—>fiat to crypto-friendly EMI/bank (—> fiat to any bank)

For crypto-friendly EMIs / banks search at Offshore Bank Accounts & EMI Accounts subforum, the proper solution depends remarkably on your citizenship, residence and the amount of money to convert...
 
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#5
JohnnyDoe said:
Wallet—>exchange with personal iban—>fiat to bank
Click to expand...
Yes that's what is now flagged by EMI and some banks. Most exchange have recognizable pattern in their IBAN and revolut for example is blocking them. :/

jafo said:
Why let strangers at banks, FI, or exchanges know you have crypto and possibly complicate your life further with the tax authorities?

Why not pay this way for what you want? :rolleyes:
View attachment 5926

If you swapped your BTC for € on Jan. 4th, 2023 (about a year ago), you would have had ~€14K (fiat). Today, you have +€40K. Unless it's an organ transplant, I don't think anything is worth about 3 times its original price. :oops:
Click to expand...
First of all, BTC isn't crypto in general. Moreover volatility goes both ways. For crypto payment I have both a debit card and a credit card so it's covered. For other kind of investments, it's sometimes impossible for us to use these cards (they are, for example, blocked by most investment platform and I have an investment portfolio I would love to get stronger).

Like I said, I don't HAVE to, I'm just wondering if there is a way to safely re-introduce some gains in the standard market or for other use (pay standard rent, ....)

Forester said:
It depends on the particular bank. Even some classical banks are crypto-friendly, not even speaking about (some) EMIs.

Hence, a small amendment:

Wallet—>exchange with personal iban—>fiat to crypto-friendly EMI/bank (—> fiat to any bank)

For crypto-friendly EMIs / banks search at Offshore Bank Accounts & EMI Accounts subforum, the proper solution depends remarkably on your citizenship, residence and the amount of money to convert...
Click to expand...
I have a EEA citizenship but a residency to dubai where most of the banks don't touch crypto with a flag pole. I had so many issues to open my company bank account here that I will not jeopardize anything on both my personal or my company profile;

I still have other ways of banking (Revolut, Nexo,...) but if I wanted to move some crypto gains (interest, profits - no shady payments) I want to be sure that I will not loose options in terms of banking or investments,...


In dubai, I got denied multi times just because my 0.02 cents cashback on my revolut card was automated in BTC.... So that will not be anything I will do with banks here.
 
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#8
Just do it using P2P or OTC channels, no need to overcomplicate things but make sure to document said transactions and have plausible invoices for them in case the banks start asking questions.
 
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#12
ActionMan said:
well, you are not ready for this yet. try searching the forum for a bit, this method is already working and well tested. after that, if you still somehow didn't figure it out, just PM me and I can go with you through it.
Click to expand...
Amandograde said:
the learning curve is steep and this forum is full of this since like 3 or 4 years.
Click to expand...
Very condescending answers here... I know that some shell companies, boggus invoices and crypto/fiat payment could do the trick... It's also basically money laundering and I was talking about keeping my profile clean as I have legitimate businesses. I also have all my cryptos on an exchange so I don't really need to generate illegal invoices to prove them.
I was looking for a more legitimate way to get these gains and not having an account frozen because the person who did AML didn't have s$x last night and was somewhat upset while he was reading my SOF that is all transactions, stakings and interests generated on an all documented platform anyway.
I will just use a LTV to do so.
 
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#13
Zikki said:
Very condescending answers here... I know that some shell companies, boggus invoices and crypto/fiat payment could do the trick... It's also basically money laundering and I was talking about keeping my profile clean as I have legitimate businesses. I also have all my cryptos on an exchange so I don't really need to generate illegal invoices to prove them.
I was looking for a more legitimate way to get these gains and not having an account frozen because the person who did AML didn't have s$x last night and was somewhat upset while he was reading my SOF that is all transactions, stakings and interests generated on an all documented platform anyway.
I will just use a LTV to do so.
Click to expand...
Hey, I wasn't trying to talk down to anyone. Just laying out the facts. Dealing honestly with folks who don't have a clue about cross-border payments or investing, crypto included, isn't always going to get you ahead. You've got to learn to navigate these roadblocks set by people who just don't get it.

No need to play pretend. Find someone who'll do the legwork for a fee, or roll up your sleeves and do it yourself. Or, go for OTC methods, but make sure you're dealing with a business, not some random individual.

There are other ways, too. Like hooking up with a reliable EMI that's crypto-friendly, one that can give you an IBAN in your name. Then you just transfer it to your personal bank.

That's the world we're in, so you either adapt or play it straight, sticking to just fiat or crypto. Your money, your choice.
 
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#14
Zikki said:
t's also basically money laundering
Click to expand...
You and +99.99% of people are completely WRONG about this!

This is money laundering:

1704564044586.webp


Example (1): If I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency from someone who is e.g. mining it, thus P2P, and keep it a secret, it is NOT money laundering...even 15 years later when those pennies-worth bitcoins are worth +€40K. (This is a REAL case, BTW). The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER/plaintiff! I am NOT obliged to tell ANYONE the source of my wealth and they are NOT obliged to accept me as a client (e.g. an exchange or bank). Simple as that!

1704564552182.webp


Example (2): On the other hand, if I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase ILLEGAL DRUGS from a drug dealer and then reselling it for a PROFIT and investing the proceeds of the drug resale into bitcoin to "launder" its origin... THIS constitutes money laundering among other things!!!

Capiche? :rolleyes:

Here is a summary, but you can go read the whole thing on scotus.gov
1704565528185.webp


Your misunderstanding of the law is not rare, it's actually very common and I have observed it with many lawyers too all around the world.
It's so prevalent that there are special motions for it, for example "Ineffective Assistance of Counsel"

1704566650613.webp


Most cops and lawyers don't even know the law, they do NOT care, nor do they have to! See the Supreme Court ruling next.
If a police officer's understanding of the law is mistaken but reasonable, a resulting vehicle stop does not violate the Fourth Amendment because the officer had reasonable suspicion justifying the stop.

PS. I've been "around & involved in the law" since I was a kid. :rolleyes: I'll try to explain "law" with euphemism in a manner most intelligent people have been able to understand it:

It's one thing to spar Mike Tyson with headgear and bodygear in a friendly gym environment filled with camaraderie (i.e. being involved in the law from its fringes), but it is a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of BADASSERY to step into the ring in Madison Square Garden surrounded by thousands of screaming fans cheering for Mike to take your head off and TV stations all around the world doing commentary while YOU are trying to go AGAINST Iron Mike in a hostile environment, without ANY protection or help, trying to take the Championship title away from him. This is the difference between a scrimmage (controlled theory) and an all-out war (reality/practice)! ;)
 
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#15
jafo said:
You and +99.99% of people are completely WRONG about this!

This is money laundering:

View attachment 5935

Example (1): If I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency from someone who is e.g. mining it, thus P2P, and keep it a secret, it is NOT money laundering...even 15 years later when those pennies-worth bitcoins are worth +€40K. (This is a REAL case, BTW). The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER/plaintiff! I am NOT obliged to tell ANYONE the source of my wealth and they are NOT obliged to accept me as a client (e.g. an exchange or bank). Simple as that!

View attachment 5936

Example (2): On the other hand, if I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase ILLEGAL DRUGS from a drug dealer and then reselling it for a PROFIT and investing the proceeds of the drug resale into bitcoin to "launder" its origin... THIS constitutes money laundering among other things!!!

Capiche? :rolleyes:

Here is a summary, but you can go read the whole thing on scotus.gov
View attachment 5937

Your misunderstanding of the law is not rare, it's actually very common and I have observed it with many lawyers too all around the world.
It's so prevalent that there are special motions for it, for example "Ineffective Assistance of Counsel"

View attachment 5938

Most cops and lawyers don't even know the law, they do NOT care, nor do they have to! See the Supreme Court ruling next.
If a police officer's understanding of the law is mistaken but reasonable, a resulting vehicle stop does not violate the Fourth Amendment because the officer had reasonable suspicion justifying the stop.

PS. I've been "around & involved in the law" since I was a kid. :rolleyes: I'll try to explain "law" with euphemism in a manner most intelligent people have been able to understand it:

It's one thing to spar Mike Tyson with headgear and bodygear in a friendly gym environment filled with camaraderie (i.e. being involved in the law from its fringes), but it is a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of BADASSERY to step into the ring in Madison Square Garden surrounded by thousands of screaming fans cheering for Mike to take your head off and TV stations all around the world doing commentary while YOU are trying to go AGAINST Iron Mike in a hostile environment, without ANY protection or help, trying to take the Championship title away from him. This is the difference between a scrimmage (controlled theory) and an all-out war (reality/practice)! ;)
Click to expand...
You are so right! Unfortunately not only law doesn't equal to justice, but the so called "servants of the state" (aka picciotti of the mafia) ignore (knowingly or not) the laws that they are supposed to apply.
So all this becomes in practice only an intellectual exercise.
Solution: think and act as a criminal even if you are not one. This will level the playing field with the mafia (the state).
 
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#17
jafo said:
You and +99.99% of people are completely WRONG about this!

This is money laundering:

View attachment 5935

Example (1): If I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency from someone who is e.g. mining it, thus P2P, and keep it a secret, it is NOT money laundering...even 15 years later when those pennies-worth bitcoins are worth +€40K. (This is a REAL case, BTW). The burden of proof is on the ACCUSER/plaintiff! I am NOT obliged to tell ANYONE the source of my wealth and they are NOT obliged to accept me as a client (e.g. an exchange or bank). Simple as that!

View attachment 5936

Example (2): On the other hand, if I work as a local physician at a state-owned hospital in Athens, Greece (ESY) and convert my after-tax paycheck/salary into FIAT and then use it to purchase ILLEGAL DRUGS from a drug dealer and then reselling it for a PROFIT and investing the proceeds of the drug resale into bitcoin to "launder" its origin... THIS constitutes money laundering among other things!!!

Capiche? :rolleyes:

Here is a summary, but you can go read the whole thing on scotus.gov
View attachment 5937

Your misunderstanding of the law is not rare, it's actually very common and I have observed it with many lawyers too all around the world.
It's so prevalent that there are special motions for it, for example "Ineffective Assistance of Counsel"

View attachment 5938

Most cops and lawyers don't even know the law, they do NOT care, nor do they have to! See the Supreme Court ruling next.
If a police officer's understanding of the law is mistaken but reasonable, a resulting vehicle stop does not violate the Fourth Amendment because the officer had reasonable suspicion justifying the stop.

PS. I've been "around & involved in the law" since I was a kid. :rolleyes: I'll try to explain "law" with euphemism in a manner most intelligent people have been able to understand it:

It's one thing to spar Mike Tyson with headgear and bodygear in a friendly gym environment filled with camaraderie (i.e. being involved in the law from its fringes), but it is a WHOLE NEW LEVEL of BADASSERY to step into the ring in Madison Square Garden surrounded by thousands of screaming fans cheering for Mike to take your head off and TV stations all around the world doing commentary while YOU are trying to go AGAINST Iron Mike in a hostile environment, without ANY protection or help, trying to take the Championship title away from him. This is the difference between a scrimmage (controlled theory) and an all-out war (reality/practice)! ;)
Click to expand...
Very well said.
 
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#20
jafo said:
This is money laundering:
Click to expand...
The key question is whether someone forgot to pay taxes on non illegal obtained assets would that count as laundering or not.
 
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